On Magic and Magicians « Thread Started on Aug 7, 2004, 10:24pm »
Mostly I was wondering if anyone had some details on the magicians and magic. So far we have five magics, one of which is Zelretch's jewel magic, and then the magic of resurrection (Which doesn't seem to have a magician from what I infer of the grail war?) and then Aoko who does "Blue Magic" and is a fourth magician. Seemingly deals with energy creation of some kind. Evospace theorized it might relate to time as I recall. I thought it might just be some form of spontaneous energy creation. Perhaps it replicates the universes' spontaneous creation abilities with a particle I have been too long out of science to recall the name of...
There's also some theory that the big bang was just a lot of this happening at once so depending on where Nasu puts his science leanings it could certainly result in energy of some kind. While this is somewhat scientific, it is certainly beyond current science.
Anyway, this was how I thought things were laid out:
Kuzunoha Yukari 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #1 on Aug 7, 2004, 10:42pm »
I wonder if anybody has the ability to transform space or time into matter/energy?
Well, one of the magicians has to be a time traveler, since scientifically, it's impossible--honestly, there were a series of debates and discussions, in which Stephen Hawking and many of his less-famous peers took part in, where they discussed what in the universe "time" and "space" are, and on what operative mechanisms in the laws of physics could theoretically accomodate time travel. The result they came up with was pretty disheartening: Impossible. All experiments given our knowledge of matter, energy, and otherwise, would likely result in very, very messy results.
So that's always a possibility! The ability to physically travel back in time.
And then there's no science that can create Magic Circuits--another possible magic is this sort of "Metamagic," where manipulation of the very root-derived "first degree of separation" from " " (in other words, Magic and Sorcery) becomes possible!
Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #2 on Aug 7, 2004, 10:52pm »
Space or time to matter energy doesn't seem too logical since there really is very little relation. You're just talking about dimension there, not substance. So it seems little different from energy from nothing.
So far as things like time travel, that doesn't mean the magic is discovered or has a user... since wasn't Warakia looking for a sixth magic? Just because you can conceive something doesn't mean you can do it.
So far as the time travel question... my response I guess is that things are only impossible until they're not.
Magic Circuit creation would be interesting. God, I'd feel sorry for that magician in some ways though. Think of all the gold digging sorcerers coming after him.
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Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #3 on Aug 7, 2004, 10:58pm »
Is antimatter what you are talking about? matter meet antimatter = annihilation?
The first magician is dead if I remember correctly... lots of speculation on that one...
Time manipulation and Spatial manipulation are fields that are known to be considered as part of magic.
The sixth law is currently unknown as well. Both Araya Souren and Walachia are known sorcerors who wants to achieve the sixth law. Although they have opposite goals so it is very possible that they wish to achieve different types of sixth law, however both seemed to be studying the same thing: peoples death.
Interesting to note that Tohko seemed to be studying in the field of the third law: creating a body to house the soul.
Tohko also mentioned that at the time of Kara no Kyoukai there is only one magician resides in Japan..
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Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #4 on Aug 7, 2004, 10:58pm »
No kidding. Though I would be very, very disappointed if it turns into a "Maburaho" situation.
Back on topic, time-matter transformations were actually part of D&D 3.5's Psionics system--the Power "Quintessence" is an interesting way to view the concepts of "time" and "matter."
Even if it was only included because the designers probably thought it would be "cool."
Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #5 on Aug 7, 2004, 11:11pm »
How does Maburaho fall into this exactly? Didn't quite make the connection, except they kind of do a third magic thing I suppose. And maybe Touka is who created the craziness in the end.
I guess part of the question, with the first magician being dead, is does someone actually have to acheive something as a power for it to be considered magic? Or is it just conception? And then does it just stick around after? I also kind of wonder why they still remember him as the first magician... one would think if he was around long enough to be the first there would have been tons of magic since it was a less advanced time period.
Matter and antimatter annihilate and create energy. But nothing is lost so far as I know. Its been theorized the big bang energy may have been partially a matter antimatter annihilation. There happened to be a great deal more matter than antimatter though which is where the resulting universe came from. And why we don't have antimatter occuring naturally.
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Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #6 on Aug 7, 2004, 11:12pm »
Just remembered something...it was mentioned that only 4 magician are currently left. Since the magician for the 1st law is dead then the magician for the third law would be still alive.
The qualification for what considers magic is very clear i think. As to why more magic was not created by the guy, I think it can only be answered if more exact information on the magicians themselves and the exact nature of magic were given(for example the physical strain). I would speculate that one is only attuned to a certain type of magic... Thus he only created/discovered one magic, like how Aoko is only good at destructive magic.
All we know about Aokos magic is that it destroys, in no where does it state that an erasure of existance would occur.
Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #7 on Aug 7, 2004, 11:18pm »
Hmm, that rather makes the whole thing in Fate curious then since I thought they were trying to find a way to create the third magic. Which seems to suggest no one could do it anymore.
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Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #8 on Aug 7, 2004, 11:31pm »
Quote:
Hmm, that rather makes the whole thing in Fate curious then since I thought they were trying to find a way to create the third magic. Which seems to suggest no one could do it anymore.
Evaron
The whole event in fate is an attempt to recreate/duplicate the third law, it does not mean the magician is dead. Just like the homework from Zelretch that Rin manages to finish..
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Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #9 on Aug 8, 2004, 3:01am »
Hey, what do you think the relationship between Aoko's magic and the grass field is? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's wondering about it. It certainly doesn't look like it coule be reached by normal means.
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Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #10 on Aug 8, 2004, 3:06am »
Oh, and your image of "Magic Circuit Golddiggers" made me think of the first basic premise of that particular show.
As far as scientifically possible things are concerned, time manipulation counts--scientists can manipulate time by accelerating an object's speed! They tested atomic clocks in this manner, synchronizing them on the ground, but sending one up in a jet. When they were compared to check for any divergences, there was an error of almost a second, I think! But time travel, specifically, the ability to change the past and change history in this manner, is scientifically impossible--though conceivable. It's just that every conceptual model for accomplishing this feat is, even hypothetically, doomed to failure!
I think the "Impossible Conversion" might count as a form of magic, even if it's a hypothetical sixth law or beyond! A form of extremely versatile crafting, where one plays upon the normal relationships of the universe: Matter and Energy are often interrelated, and so are Time and Space. What could one do if one wanted to change how these basic universal constants reacted with one another? The ability to smell time, to eat it, and gain sustenance--to devour one's time yet draw upon time from one's surroundings?
That would be one possible Nasu-esque explanation for the unachieved ideal: Immortality. Funny how that's a basic themes of Tsukihime~!
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Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #11 on Aug 8, 2004, 6:35am »
Shouldn't vampirizing (not sure that's a real word but you get the meaning anyway) be considered as magic? It can't possibly be explained with science.
Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #12 on Aug 8, 2004, 3:23pm »
Hmm, I thought Aoko's grass field was just related to where she met Shiki originally. True White Ren is destroyed by then but I guess I was just figuring it was another oddity stemming from it. And White Ren must still have some effect since some of her creations can get to Aoko after beating her.
That time manipulation arguement isn't really what I'd call manipulation. You're just seeing a natural effect at work and measuring it. The only difference between what they did and the clock on my computer is the placement. Time Magic would be taking two clocks in sync with equal position and then accelerating one past the other or something of that nature.
Time devouring gives me Chrono Cross flashbacks.
I'm not sure about vampirization. Perhaps the mages are finding some way to taint themselves with Brunestud's power or something? There isn't too many details on how they accomplished that particular aspect. Plus there seems to be a lot of things that are undoable by science but not really considered magic, even if they might rely on magic circuits in some fashion. Like Reality Marbles. No science can create a bunch of swords out of nowhere but I don't think anyone called Shirou a magician.
Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #13 on Aug 8, 2004, 3:44pm »
Quote:
No science can create a bunch of swords out of nowhere but I don't think anyone called Shirou a magician.
Well, I'm going from second or third hand information on Magic here, but as I understand it that's not quite it. Science can make swords; indeed, it can make a lot of swords very quickly, if it wants to. It's even capable of turning an area of land into a desert.
As I understand it, the difference is between effects science could potentially duplicate with a lot of work (creating thousands of swords, making really big explosions, doing the Magus's laundry for them), and effects which it could not possibly duplicate however hard it tries (interdimensional travel, resurrection of the dead, changing the fundamental nature of "truth"). As far as I can recall, all the Reality Marbles we have seen fall into the first category....
Re: On Magic and Magicians « Reply #14 on Aug 8, 2004, 3:49pm »
So how does something like Nero's where he stuffs animals inside him work? Taking a really big plunger, a deer, and telling someone to bend over?
I hope that gave everyone good mental images.
You might also think something like Satsuki and her garden creation. Its almost like creating life. There seems to be a lot of gray area in here. It seems like you could consider a lot of things magic or not magic depending on how creative you are in an explanation.
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