Topic: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid (Read 3,367 times)
sssssz Master of Entropy and Chaos member is offline
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The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Thread Started on Apr 25, 2004, 4:50pm »
It seems quite obvious (Nanaya's blood and Kohaku's plan) but, If he reacted that much with Arcueid, than he probably went nuts with Akiha, Kohaku, Hisui, and the Arima family.
So what I thought was that "The Beast of Alaya influenced Shiki to kill Arcueid, enemy of humanity."
The Beast of Alaya often comes out in Tsukihime story, but there never was the Beast of Alaya in Tsukihime story. Since knowing Nasu Kinoko is an airtight writer/proofreader, I think he hid the Beast of Alaya behind the murder of Arcueid.
I just thought it up. If you find anything really stupid please reply. I don't want to be a fool.
Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #1 on Apr 25, 2004, 5:06pm »
Eh, never heard of this before so could you perhaps elaborate a little on what it is? And so far as killing, Arcueid would have had way more demonic type energy than anyone else at her full power. That may have been a lot of the reason.
VeX 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #2 on Apr 25, 2004, 6:59pm »
Quote:
It seems quite obvious (Nanaya's blood and Kohaku's plan) but, If he reacted that much with Arcueid, than he probably went nuts with Akiha, Kohaku, Hisui, and the Arima family.
Akiha I would understand (and he always had these urges, just didn't act on them).... but I believe that Kohaku and Hisui would not cause Shiki to go nuts. They aren't blood related to the Tohnos. With the Arimas, Kohaku wasn't drugging Shiki just yet.
Need more info on the Beast of Alaya and your theory to make further comments etc....
I never thought something so wrong could be so.... appropriate..... (I'm going to run out of little dots '.' at the rate I use them....)
sssssz Master of Entropy and Chaos member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #3 on Apr 25, 2004, 7:19pm »
Beast of Alaya- The ultimate will to live of humanity (not exactly, but something like this) It's opposite of aristoteles, which is the ultimate will to exist of planets. So, Arcueid being enemy of humanity, the Beast of Alaya would try to get her.
About Nanaya's blood- I thought Nanaya lineage hunt human that is not 100% human, like Tohnos, Arimas, and etc. But Fujyou (last name of Kohaku and Hisui) lineage is also not human, so Shiki should have gone crazy when they saw them that morning he was handed Nanatsuyoru, because he was drugged at that time.
VeX 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #4 on Apr 25, 2004, 10:13pm »
Quote:
But Fujyou (last name of Kohaku and Hisui) lineage is also not human, so Shiki should have gone crazy when they saw them that morning he was handed Nanatsuyoru, because he was drugged at that time.
That's how I came up with the theory.
I thought the Fujou was classified under the demon hunter families (or at least families with bloodline gifts) and not the demon tainted Tohno bloodline. http://www.geocities.com/max3075/enc/demons.htm
But if it was the Beast of Alaya to have caused it, there should be other occurrences (like in the Ciel True end?). I doubt that the will of humanity would just stop at one point.
Now that I think of it, it could also have caused Arcueid to do the eternal sleep in her True end, in order to stop her threat.... interesting....
I never thought something so wrong could be so.... appropriate..... (I'm going to run out of little dots '.' at the rate I use them....)
EvoSpace アカシャの蛇 Serpent of Akasha member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #5 on Apr 26, 2004, 4:45am »
Since I was interested in the topic, I read back two of the sub stories in Kagetsu Toya, "Crimson Moon" and "The Red Demon God". For those of you who don't know yet, "Crimson Moon" is a glimpse of Arcueid's past/secret through Roa's eyes and Shiki's mind is some how connected to his. The Red Demon God is about Shiki's father, and it goes up the point where he was killed by Kishima Kouma. I personally think these two are the most interesting stories in Kagetsu Toya... I might consider them as my future translation project. =P
Anyways, backing up to the topic. In the Crimson Moon story, it explains what the Monster of Alaya does: it eliminates the enemies of primates/mankind, but it won't kill the True Ancestors because they are still peacekeepers of nature, and people need nature to survive. But Crimson Moon is different, it's an enemy of both Gaia(planet) and Alaya(primates). (That makes so much sense to me after seeing the prologue DVD artbook.) It is possible for Arcueid to become the 2nd Crimson moon so it's possible that Alaya will try to kill Arcueid.
Now in The Red Demon God's story, it talks about Psychic Abilities. It says a psychic ability is a restraining power created unconsciously by mankind. What it restrains is whatever maybe a threat to mankind. It is not an ability given from nature, but a power that the human race gained themselves. So far it does sound like Alaya=Psychic Abilities, but there are few problems. A person with a psychic ability isn't nearly as powerful as what sounds like Alaya. The Nanayas back up their psychic abilities with their assassination skills and then they were able to fight the demons/mixed bleeds equally. How Shiki got his eyes is an accident. Arcueid at that time wasn't a threat to mankind at all. The voice commanding Shiki to kill is killing for pleasure, not from such reasoning. So my conclusion is that there are many connections between the two factors, there isn't enough evidence to prove that. Although, it'll make sense story wise... where Altrouge Brunestud has the Monster of Gaia as her partner while Arcueid Brunestud has the Monster of Alaya as her partner. (!)
But I know for sure Shiki didn't kill Arcueid just because he was senstive to things other than humans. He can see and hear non-human things better than normal people and trained as an assassin, but to kill or not kill is something he can control. evidence 1. In the night before Shiki killed Arcueid, he saw Nero. Nero is supposedly an immediate threat to humans than Arcueid but he didn't think of killing him. (Of course he didn't have a weapon but) Note that he probably wasn't drugged by kohaku yet at the time! evidence 2. Even after he turned into his Nanaya mode, he didn't kill Akiha at the end of the Kohaku scenario. Note the real Tohno Shiki is dead at the time and Roa isn't there! So I'm still thinking the reason must be one or both of these outside influence.
Wow sorry it got so long. Why Shiki murdered Arcueid is the most interesting topic in the whole story. And I too am still learning new things every day!
sssssz Master of Entropy and Chaos member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #6 on Apr 27, 2004, 5:58pm »
Thinking about Nrvanqsr and Arqueid.
Nrvnqsr is not a target of the Monster of Alaya, because Nrvnqsr used to be human. So the Monster of Alaya wouldn't want to hurt any human at all. But Arcueid is. Because Arcueid is a copy of the Crimson Moon, mercernary hired by the planet to kill all humanity, like Evospace said. So the Monster of Alaya would want to get rid of Arcueid and Shinsoes to protect humanity.
Joined: Dec 2003 Gender: Female Posts: 412 Location: Kara no Kyoukai
Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #7 on Apr 27, 2004, 11:02pm »
Alaya is the combined subconcious of primates, through out history it has known to chosen champion to go on 'quests'. Alaya targets all who pose a threat to the existence of mankind, including those who are human.
I doubt that Arcueid's murder was influenced by Alaya though. Because 1. Arcueid does not threaten mankind directly at the time. 2. Arcueid still has uses against other dead apostles. 3. Alaya seems to work on a much subtler level, creating circumstances rather than to influencing Shiki directly like that.
EvoSpace アカシャの蛇 Serpent of Akasha member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #8 on Apr 28, 2004, 12:47am »
While I was thinking about this today, I thought of another reason why Shiki would kill Arcueid. Because of his own fighting instinct. Similar to how his father busted Kishima Kouma's eyes years before, Shiki unconsciously knew that she will be a threat to him one day (when she fully becomes the Crimson Moon), so it'll be better to kill her when he still had a chance. Similarly towards Akiha before her demon blood takes over. Maybe not to Nero Chaos that night because Shiki knew he can't kill him without a weapon. Kind of going back to the demon hunter/assassin blood theory? But I don't fully believe this either because of the excited voice that commanded him.
And yeah I don't think Alaya has anything to do with this either. According to the Crimson Moon story, Alaya has been around for hundreds of years already and it's wierd for it to suddenly kill her. Also, I'm not sure what kind of shape the Monster will take, but if it's the polar opposite of Primate Murder which supposedly is the Beast of Gaia, it will take some kind of shape than just indirectly commading through people's mind.
VeX 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #9 on May 5, 2004, 6:41am »
Several thoughts passed through my mind as I passed some time playing Melty Blood.... mostly about Shiki and his abilities:
If Shiki had the ability to instantly erase his target, why didn't he use it on Arcueid and insteat cut her up into 17 pieces?
If Shiki's abilities directly attack and destroy its targets concept (piercing the 'dot'), could it also attack a certain concept.... Like attacking a person's ability to reincarnate without killing the person? Sealing a person's movement but not the person? Just what ARE the limits to the Chokushi Magan?
Was Shiki the best of those who were.... gifted (or should I say cursed) with the Chokushi Magan? Is there yet another level to this ability? The first was something like Roa's ability of only seeing the lines of living things... Shiki could see them on ALL things... He could also take it to another level and see the 'dot' of existance.... could there still be a deeper level?
<sigh> and thus end's some more thoughts from the muddled mind of VeX....
EvoSpace アカシャの蛇 Serpent of Akasha member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #12 on May 5, 2004, 3:55pm »
You can tell when someone's really into Tsukihime when they try to understand Shiki's potential power. Shiki's eyes can kill virtually anything. He should be able to even destroy the whole earth in one pierce. But it's just that Shiki himself can't handle the power. It already causes him a headache just to see death of physical objects. It is extremely difficult for a human being to perceive death of non-physical objects because we don't know that it can be "killed" too. Trying to see death of abstract concepts or things that affect a wide area mean it might kill himself because it's too much. But as long as that target exists in the world in some form, there is a death that returns it to nothingness.
A reference: Day 4 in Kohaku Scenario. Conversation between Shiki and the real Tohno Shiki.
I spoke with the man for an hour. Looking at the cars passing by, we talked about some pointless things. The most pointless thing was about our individual abilities. My eyes that can see death, and the man's body that won't die easily. As we were discussing their principle, "...I see. Then does that mean you can kill the 5 senses?" He suddenly said something weird. "I can't. I can't kill something that's so ambiguous and can only be expressed by an expression" "That can't be true. Look, if you wanted to kill sight, the eyes, to kill the sense of hearing, the ears. But that's something even I can do.. But yours is different. You can kill things without crushing them. Yours, at the moment you see the lines, is killing not the object, but its meaning. That's why----something above the 5 senses, like the things called the 6th sense.... spirits and emotions, you're able to chip off things of those nature. "......Hmm." ....That's certainly right. My eyes themselves are originally abnormal It's already wrong to think of it using logical reasoning. ....Then will I be able to kill that? The apparition that I once saw in my childhood. I think that possessive thing was called Kurenai Seki Shu. "But that sounds difficult. If I'm able to perceive even things like that, I don't think I can keep my consciousness." "Yeah. It's like saying you're doing a calculation of a god, when you only have a brain of a human. It'll make you a dead man, no doubt."
Also, I think the reason Shiki just cut Arcueid into 17 pieces is because at that point, 1. He, or someone controlling him didn't know she was an immortal vampire. 2. He, or someone is enjoying the pleasure of tearing her apart. 3. He, or someone didn't know about the dot.
VeX 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 1,430 Location: Manila, Philippines
Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #13 on May 5, 2004, 9:35pm »
Quote:
You can tell when someone's really into Tsukihime when they try to understand Shiki's potential power. Shiki's eyes can kill virtually anything. He should be able to even destroy the whole earth in one pierce. But it's just that Shiki himself can't handle the power. It already causes him a headache just to see death of physical objects. It is extremely difficult for a human being to perceive death of non-physical objects because we don't know that it can be "killed" too. Trying to see death of abstract concepts or things that affect a wide area mean it might kill himself because it's too much. But as long as that target exists in the world in some form, there is a death that returns it to nothingness.
Also, I think the reason Shiki just cut Arcueid into 17 pieces is because at that point, 1. He, or someone controlling him didn't know she was an immortal vampire. 2. He, or someone is enjoying the pleasure of tearing her apart. 3. He, or someone didn't know about the dot.
I'm not just trying to understand Shiki's potential.... I'm trying to understand ALL the character's potentials (well... maybe not Arihiko and the other extras).... yes, even TIGER (she must have a Reality Marble "Tiger Dojo" or something)....
Given what you just said EvoSpace, I just got another probable reason why Shiki didn't use the dot: Self-preservation. He knew that it would be dangerous for himself to use that ability.
On the killing of concepts.... wow.... I wonder if Kinoko would make a character who could wield the Chokushi Magan to a higher level without killing him/her/itself... hmmm... maybe a cyborg/robot?.... I still don't have Rakkyo (and even if I did... I wouldn't understand it....) and I saw in the site that a certain Shiki Ryougi also had this ability. How well could she wield it?
I never thought something so wrong could be so.... appropriate..... (I'm going to run out of little dots '.' at the rate I use them....)
sssssz Master of Entropy and Chaos member is offline
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Re: The reason of Shiki's murder of Arcueid « Reply #14 on May 9, 2004, 10:00pm »
Quote:
I saw in the site that a certain Shiki Ryougi also had this ability. How well could she wield it?
This could be a spoiler, well but if you want to know.
Ryougi Shiki herself is an portrait of death. She is connected to the origin/akashic record. When the male Shiki died she has fallen into coma (I believe it was coma) and been observing the origin. She has understood death. Shiki from Tsukihime did too but Shiki from Rakkyou did better. Shiki from Tsukihime didn't seem to fully activate his Chokushi Magan, but Shiki from Rakkyou did master this ability. She can turn it on and off, the lines are in color (.....colors are better than black and white), and even terminate wills (this is very significant. This means she can kill concept, such as hate, language, system of thoughts, or intangible object such as soul or universe.) Almost forgot to mention it. R. Shiki's chokushi magan does not hurt her, because it is her origin (as 'Eating' is the origin of Shirazmi Rio)
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Shiki's eyes can kill virtually anything. He should be able to even destroy the whole earth in one pierce. But it's just that Shiki himself can't handle the power. It already causes him a headache just to see death of physical objects. It is extremely difficult for a human being to perceive death of non-physical objects because we don't know that it can be "killed" too. Trying to see death of abstract concepts or things that affect a wide area mean it might kill himself because it's too much. But as long as that target exists in the world in some form, there is a death that returns it to nothingness.