Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #256 on Dec 3, 2005, 1:41pm »
Hi. I'm kinda new to the Fate/Stay Night - Hollow Ataraxia world but I recently finished playing the main story of Hollow Ataraxia and thought I'd add some info. My japanese isn't very good though so I hope someone can help me verify this.
1) From the 2nd movie of ataraxia, it seems the looping period is from the 8th to 11th October of the Heaven Feel arc of the original Fate Stay Night. From what I can see in FSN (I'm playing it right now), its days are also numbered so these periods may correspond. This may explain why characters who should be dead are still around.
2) I've been hearing alot of stuff here about how Shirou is Avenger but IMHO, Shirou is NOT Avenger.
My theory, based on my playthrough, stuff I read here and in Evoscape's homepage, goes like this: Avenger is a Servant that is a formless shadow which is close to nothingness. However, by either fate or design, when Avenger and Bazett appear in the 5th war and start the loop, Avenger selected Shirou has a kind of host, taking his form and traits of his personality over time. I think Avenger should have his own personality but perhaps something damaged or corrupted his true form during his first appearance in the 3rd war. This would not surprise me since an event happened that was terrible enough to bring down the fall of the Grail. The true Shirou is still around but may feel the effects of having Avenger sucking away at him. (During his meetings with Caren, does she notice anything about Shirou that might confirm this?) Shirou and Avenger couldn't have been the same being from the beginning of the loop, since Shirou/Saber did come to blows with Basett/Avenger directly at one point. Over time, Avenger took on more and more of Shirow's personality, which may explain why Avenger would have a change of heart and try to help Shirow. During the H scene with Caren, I thought that only around that point, so late in the game, Shirou and Avenger started to fuse - and that this fused being was what confronted Bazett at the Grail and convinced her to end the contract. This is just a theory though but I really can't buy Shirou being Avenger.
3) The Eclipse event where Bazett visits Shirou's house may be the true ending of Hollow Ataraxia - unlocked only after the end of Bazett's contract. However, if I'm right about the dates corresponding with the days in Heaven's Feel, then Caren and Bazett's new presence may drastically alter how Heaven's Feel turns out. I haven't covered Heaven's Feel in FSN though but from what I've read here, it seems Shirou dies and becomes an Archer class servant.
4) A little titbit - in the Eclipse end scene, it is implied that Bazett may be or may have been in love with Lancer. There's a scene where everyone pressures Bazett into explaining her relationship with Lancer, which ends in everyone having knowing smiles or blushes and Caren and Shirou teasing Bazett about breaking up with the man she loves - which makes Bazett embarassed and retort about how she could never be interested in such a worthless man.
Well, I'm looking forward to more information in this thread. ^^ I'm really curious about what Caren said at the very end that ended in a shocked explosion. Did Shirou get her pregnant or something?
Btw, does anybody know where I can get my hands on a working version of a loader program for ataraxia or FSN so I can use Oh! Text Loader on it? Thanks!
arai 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #257 on Dec 3, 2005, 3:18pm »
Interesting way of putting it, but there are some holes here and there.
First, I'll start with the easiest point to address, because the Shirou/Angra is too confusing. The Eclipse epilogue can't have actually occurred. According to Karen and Ilya, all of the people involved in the loop were actually the real people themselves. However, Karen and Angra Mainyu were considered to be fake/copies of the original. While everybody would lose their memory, they'd still remember what actually happened on a subconscious level because they actually experienced what happened, Karen would not because she was only a copy. The Karen in the Eclipse epilogue had very, very, clear memories of what happened. Hence, she couldn't be real. Plus, the original name for the epilogue was 4.5 Epilogue. If it was meant to be taken seriously, they'd at least have considered naming it 5 Epilogue.
Now the 2nd point is a hard to really go into. 1. Whenever Bazett came across Shirou, she didn't notice he was there. I think if that was the real Shirou, she would be able to see him. According to the nightly events, it looked like most of the time, the beasts were invisible to everyone else until the final night... 2. Also, there are multiple Angra's during one loop. The beasts were actually all the Angra's that could never get to the 5th day. So the idea of Shirou being able to meet Avenger doesn't really mean much; maybe the Angra being divided into two beings during the night? Another thing is Archer attacking Shirou on the bridge. By the way he was acting after the Dead Bridge arc was settled, the main reason (other than hating Shirou) was he was suspicious of him. Probably seeing too much into it, but Archer probably noticed that Shirou wasn't the real one. 3. Karen also mentions, when she was talking to Avenger in the Church (after Bazett realized that Kotomine betrayed her) that she met his other self during the day and commented that he seemed to be happy. My point?...I forgot. But whether that was the real Shirou or not, I think it is obvious that at the very least, there had always been a part of Angra Mainyu in Shirou within the loop.
Uwaah. Super long post.
I'd say Bazett always looked up to Lancer when she was a kid so that reflected on how she felt about him. If she managed to be his Master for a longer time, she might have started to develop feelings for him, but that's not comparable to how she felt about Kotomine. It's really clear that she was actually in love with Kotomine.
Also, what Karen was going to say was that she needed a place to stay since the Fuyuki Church was under renovation.
Cade 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Bushcraft Sage Ninja member is offline
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Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #258 on Dec 3, 2005, 7:49pm »
Since this thread is back Ill ask a about something that was bugging me. Where is Lancer in the final stages of the story when all the other servants are fighting the monsters?
Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #259 on Dec 3, 2005, 9:46pm »
Hmm Lancer did appear at the last scene, he was squatting on top of the building looking at the chaos happening in the city. Well, I'm not good at Japanese, but I think he was just waiting for the end of things to come. There's nothing to do or say but to just witness the end.
Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #260 on Dec 3, 2005, 10:18pm »
The original Fate game was around the end of January. Heaven's Feel can also apparently be a generic term for the grail war. It is pretty clearly thus half a year or so later. Whoever is actually still alive is hard to say.
Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #261 on Dec 4, 2005, 2:17am »
Arai: "However, Karen and Angra Mainyu were considered to be fake/copies of the original. While everybody would lose their memory, they'd still remember what actually happened on a subconscious level because they actually experienced what happened, Karen would not because she was only a copy. "
This part I don't understand. So Iriya and Caren both claim that Caren and Avenger are fakes? If you can, let me know which scene it is (the scene titles) so I can check this myself in the Extra section. I have two theories on how Caren could have become involved.
Firstly, I thought Caren was involved because she was involuntarily pulled in as the de facto "Manager" of the pseudo-Grail War occuring inside the infinite loop. (I'm assuming that the presence of the Manager is necessary in order to facilitate the Grail War at all).
Second, its also highly possible IMHO that Caren was the nun/nurse who treated Bazett's empty arm socket as mentioned in EvoScape's faq (somewhere ^^;;) and would be acquainted with Avenger. Perhaps Avenger pulled Caren into the loop because of this encounter.
Regarding Caren not being real, I think she is. My opinion is Caren is an anomaly for being the only real person involved in the loop that was not involved in the 3rd/5th war. She, Bazett and Shirou seem to be the only three people who retain memories from the infinite loop at the 4.5 epilogue.
Arai: "Plus, the original name for the epilogue was 4.5 Epilogue."
I think the reason for this title is just to show that the loop has been broken - that Bazett's (and everyone else's) time has started to continue normally again - cos Bazett appeared half a day after the 4th day ended. If the loop was still active, at the end of the 4th day, Bazett would automatically wake up on the 1st day no matter what.
Sorry if my arguments seem incoherent but this story is incredibly complex and it doesn't help that my Japanese isn't very good. Well, I'm a sucker for happy endings so Epilogue 4.5 works for me. Actually I'd love to know what happens AFTER this. Besides Sabre, Rin and Sakura, it seems Shirou has gotten ALOT closer to Rider and somewhat closer to Iriya. I'm pretty sure Caren, at least, may have feelings for him too. And while I'm betting Bazett and Lancer will probably become a couple, her relationship with Shirou is also pretty warm. (The scene where Rin and Sakura give Shirou the evil eye after Bazett complains that Shirou doesn't call her by her first name anymore still cracks me up.)
Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #262 on Dec 4, 2005, 2:28am »
Btw, regarding how Lancer sort of sits out the final battle where everyone else goes after the shadow wolves, I also have some theories.
1) Lancer is without a master and thus does not have the mana to go into battle. I've read somewhere that Caren, as the Manager, was Lancer's master, but she disappeared right after escorting Shirou to the top of the stairway to the Grail.
2) Lancer is aware that Bazett is at the Grail and feels that only Shirou/Avenger can stop her - Lancer would only get in the way.
3) Lancer may have some latent memories or may even be fully aware of the time when he and Bazett killed each other in one of the loops. (He may still have a strong link with Bazett through their earrings or something, in spite of Bazett losing her command mantra). After this Lancer vs Bazett event, I remember Lancer disappeared from further loops and couldn't be found at his usual fishing spot anymore.
EvoSpace アカシャの蛇 Serpent of Akasha member is offline
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Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #263 on Dec 4, 2005, 3:36am »
IMO, The biggest reason why the Epilogue can't be really happening is the fact that Saber, Lancer, and Rider were all mentioned that they were still alive. If Hollow Ataraxia followed the ending of Stay Night normally, there is no way they were able to survive together. Also Karen and Bazette were fighting over possession of Bazette's arm (That used to be Avenger) and Lancer, where in reality, Bazette doesn't have him as an arm anymore. However, it might be a good example to imagine what could have happened in the real 5th day.
The easiest to scene to see Karen and Avenger were fake is in the last part where they are climbing the Spiral ladder together. They said everything that occured in Hollow Ataraxia will be remembered by everyone, except for these two. Avenger won't able to remember it because he will return to the nobody he used to be. Karen because she's a copy pulled from the outside world. Whatever happens here won't be remembered by the real Karen, even though she's a perfect copy of herself. Other scenes you can look at are: Ten no Sakazuki - Heaven's Feel (Ilya's Castle) & Karen V (Hollow). But the details of the Shirou/Avenger relationship is still unclear, even to me.
Lancer's "battle" has already ended when he fought Bazette and tried to convince her. Now he's just waiting to see the outcome of her choice, quietly. That's how I saw it.
Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #266 on Dec 5, 2005, 1:13am »
Mabodofu?? ^^;;
EvoSpace: "IMO, The biggest reason why the Epilogue can't be really happening is the fact that Saber, Lancer, and Rider were all mentioned that they were still alive. "
I was thinking about this and then I also remember it being mentioned that the real members of the 5th grail war were pulled into Avenger/Bazett's infinite loop to replay the events of the 3rd war. Well, maybe they were pulled into the loop from the aftermath of the "Heaven's Feel" path conclusion, whether they were dead or alive. Afterwards, when the loop was broken, life continued for them afterwards.
Just to verify, once a Servant is slain, it seems he/she can still be resummoned in another war; retaining memories of what happened before, right? In the Fate sequence, it seems Saber was summoned in both the 4th and 5th wars and seems to have retained memories of what happened in the 4th. Is that correct?
Hm, as the newbie in this thread, I feel like I'm clutching at straws to justify my view but its just to weird for TypeMoon to put in a scene like Epilogue 4.5 that's meant to be dismissed as "never happened". That just makes no sense at all.
Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #267 on Dec 5, 2005, 1:41am »
Quote:
In the Fate sequence, it seems Saber was summoned in both the 4th and 5th wars and seems to have retained memories of what happened in the 4th. Is that correct?
I don't know the answer to that in particular, but I'm curious. Was Arturia summoned as Saber in both wars? If then, it might be possible. I always thought that mystery 'saber'-like guy was the last war's 'Saber'. Perhaps even that of Shirou's father.
The way I see it, there's a large pool of heroes that are drawn upon when the war begins, but only 7 are drawn. If they die, they either vanish or are 'put back in the deck' to be drawn again. Arturia might appear twice in a row, but there's a lot of people that could qualify as Saber, so...
Keiko Arukawa 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #268 on Dec 5, 2005, 4:23am »
All my information sources (read: Moonlit World and BL forums ) tell me that Arturia was the Saber that Kiritsugu summoned. I'm not sure if Kiritsugu happened to use Avalon as an artifact to summon Arturia specifically, but we DO know that he had it with him when he used it to save Shirou. (Yes, Kiritsugu STOLE AVALON. ) Arturia specifically remembered Kiritsugu and related her experiences to him. Also Arturia remembered Gilgamesh when he appeared (or at least the same Archer from the last war).
I'm sure there are several Sabers ready to be lines up, it got screwed up because of Kiritsugu implanting Avalon in Shirou. If Shirou was to summon anyone, it'd be Arturia because of the entire artifact issue. I'm sure a number of Greek kings and warriors, Japanese samurai and ronin, and Chinese heroes and heroines would have fit that role easily. I'd actually think there are an abundance of Sabers.
arai 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: WARNING-SPOILERS- Fate/hollow ataraxia pic « Reply #269 on Dec 5, 2005, 4:26am »
Eirei's exist on a different plane of existence. When you summon them, basically a copy of them is produced from that plane in the real world. Since it's only a copy though, once it dies in the real world, it is destroyed. It's memories are not transferred over to the main body. Saber's different because she hadn't become an Eirei yet so she could remember what happened.
And yeah. Kiritsugu summoned Saber with Avalon which the Eiznbern family probably got for him. Saber let him hold onto it because it would ensure that he wouldn't get killed that easily. Plus, since it's actually the original Avalon (just like Bazett's Fragarach is the original), it would still stick around even if she disappeared.
Anyway, there was the whole thing all over the game about all the Servants realizing that once the party was over, they would disappear.... The point is that they were in their own Utopia but still chose to do what was right even if that meant they would cease to exist. The Eclipse Epilogue just doesn't fit in with that theme, and like we said, plotwise there are too many contradictions.
Also, for comments on what Kinoko himself said about it, see http://www.typemoon.org/bbb/diary/log/200511.html. The geccha remark refers to the Plus-Disc skit. Just think of it as nothing more than a fun omake just like all of the deadend aftertalks, etc.
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) tell me that Arturia was the Saber that Kiritsugu summoned. I'm not sure if Kiritsugu happened to use Avalon as an artifact to summon Arturia specifically, but we DO know that he had it with him when he used it to save Shirou. (Yes, Kiritsugu STOLE AVALON.