Topic: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime (Read 685 times)
Kuzunoha Yukari 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Thread Started on Jul 17, 2004, 1:16am »
Alright, this might sound like a weird question, but I can't really answer this based off of my own experiences with th Tsukihime universe thus far, so I figured I might as well come to the premier English language place for Type-Moon rantage to get a good perspective on this...
Here's my point, I'm curious about a lot of different things, and, being a veteran player of White Wolf games--namely, Mage: The Ascension--I was wondering if anybody here had a good idea of the supernatural "principles" behind the Type-Moon Multiverse. I'm familiar with Magical paradigms like "Consensual Reality," "Mystra's Weave," "It's all in the Chi," "Magic Just Plain Works, No Questions Asked," and "EXPECTO PATRONUM!!!!!!" but I'm still wondering about magic in Tsukihime and FATE--but this is more related to Tsukihime.
[Note that I'm new to Type-Moon stuff, and I've actually only barely had any exposure wtih the Tsukihime anime...]
I'm hoping that magic in the Type-Mooniverse doesn't fall under the "No Questions Asked" category, but I'm intruiged by the various distinctions found in the Tsukihime setting...
Magic vs. Sorcery, Yin and Yang vs. Psychic Powers, Demons, Vampires, "Conceptual Weapons," and all the really chunky stuff that only hardcore fans tend to worry about.
Well.... Being a long-time Mage Storyteller, I couldn't help but notice the Tsukihime distinction between Magic and Sorcery and the Mage distinction between the same two powers. Just to compare: In Mage, "Magic" is something relying upon a true talent--"Awakening" and the cognizance represented by "Arete"--and capable of warping and chaging reality's parameters according to the Mage's whim. "Sorcery," unlike Magic, doesn't require any special talent and can be learned through effort and rote memorization. While Magic doesn't need examples from accepted reality, using them helps--"vulgar" magic defies scientific explanation, for lack of simpler terms. Sorcery is much more accepted by the bounds of reality and can be connected to reality-related "concepts" and "keys," directly or otherwise.
The Type-Moon magical model for Magic and Sorcery can be found on the website maintained by the administrator, Evospace. What also intruiged me was that Science and Magic seem to be indirectly opposed in this setting, seeing as how--thanks to scientific advancement--there are only 5 forms of true magic remaining, all of which rely on very esoteric or abstract concepts not yet grasped by scientific know-how, if the three available examples are to be taken into account. In Mage, Magic and Science are also opposed, but as generally opposed paradigms and representing a very concrete war of belief.
On another note:
Psychic powers in Tsukihime don't operate on the principles of Yin and Yang, right? So what, exactly, are the principles of Yin and Yang within the setting and what implications do they have concerning how magical and otherwise supernatural powers are concerned?
And what, exactly, are the origins of the various powers? Let's face it, researching this stuff out and about across the 'net is pretty intimidating, so I'm looking for perspectives and answers where people are most likely going to answer my questions directly.
However, since I'm a... well... Mage (no, not in real life) I was surprised to find things like "Conceptual Weapons," Imagination Realization, and perception as the ultimate power. Would magic in Tsukihime, like in White Wolf, be tied to Concepts, Perception, and Cognition directly--the closest equivalent to be found in real life folklore and belief systems would be the Named Exorcism and the concepts of Sympathy and Contagion.
Named Exorcism--Both Buddha and Jesus, when exorcising demons, evil spirits, and whatnots needed to know the name of whomever or whatever they were expelling. As in, names and words have innate power because they allow the human mind to grasp and communicate concepts and ideas, so the mind would require a concept "anchor"--in this case, a name--in order to exert some sort of influence over distinctly supernatural things. The power of the mind to grasp concepts is pretty common in quite a few well-thought-out magical systems and settings, and I was wondering on what levels "Conceptual Weapons" operated. Do they directly attack abstract supernatural entities or concepts like "immortality" or "beyond natural law?"
[Note: Ooooh. Deep, ain't it?]
And what, exactly are the sources for the various "types" of power? I know somebody probably has the answers--I've found hints of that knowledge on various random boards, like the Kagetsu Tohya account.
[To tjm: Good work, my good man!]
Well, I'm just darned curious and I don't even care if nobody really has a clue about these things, other than Nasu-sensei himself, of course!
I just wanted to make my first post on these Forums meaningful... and this forum and site is the only reason I know.... anything about Tsukihime, actually. And now I'm a fan, based entirely on the anime's OP, the walkthroughs and synopses on this board and the related website, and random comments made by various Forumites!
Amazing what a Forum can do, eh?
[Oh, and after of all that exposure, I decided to download Melty Blood---shh! ^_~]
Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #1 on Jul 17, 2004, 1:44am »
Not that I really know anything about Tsukihime magic, but I've heard that the Japanese have a tendency to explain the what of something, but not the how or why. For example, in the Resident Evil series, the T-Virus makes zombies. Why it makes zombies, or how it does it is not really discussed. I have no idea if this applies to Tsukihime, as well.
Actually, since I'm curious, I'd really like to know, in detail, what all the "Magical Paradigms" you've mentioned are. It sounds exactly like the type of trivia I'd memorize but never actually use.
CaptainOverkill 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #2 on Jul 17, 2004, 1:48am »
I think only EvoSpace can really provide a full answer to this huge list of questions since, unfortunately, the game is not yet available in English and the 12 episode anime hardly has time to get into things.
There might be one small thing I can answer...
Quote:
And what, exactly, are the origins of the various powers?
Arcueid's powers seem to come directly from the Earth itself - Shiki is able to critically weaken her in Ciel's arc by severing her connection with the environment. It's possible that Reality Marble abilities are unusuable except with a direct line to the planet. Or not, since Shirou has one and I don't know if he has any conenction with Earth.
Captain_Overkill Evaron's Witless Minion My hobbies: Blowing things up, talking about blowing things up, posting about blowing things up, studying military history to better blow things up... well, you get the idea. I also play Exalted way too damn much.
Banquo 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #3 on Jul 17, 2004, 1:55am »
You should play the Fate/Stay Night RPG with us (if evaron approves). You white wolf playing BASTARD!!!
Joined: Dec 2003 Gender: Female Posts: 412 Location: Kara no Kyoukai
Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #4 on Jul 17, 2004, 2:19am »
The major difference between majutsu(magic) and mahou(true magic) is that majutsu can be duplicated by science and mahou can't. Mahou comes from those who have reached the 'source' perhaps that is why it has the powers that surpasses others. In Nasus' world magic is based on the principles of magic circuits which operates on odo and mana.
Psychic powers and other similar 'special powers' are the products of the 'counter force'. Alaya is the cumulation of the subconciousnesses of mankind, while gaia is the will of the planet/ecosystem. The two is constantly in conflict as Alaya and Gaia struggles for dominance and survival. 'Counter forces' are used to describe actions which the two side takes to protect themselves. Shinsos, beasts of Gaia and other 'non humans' are all products of the Gaia's 'counter force' which aims to eliminate all threats to the planet. While Psychics,demon Hunters and magicians to some degree are all products of the 'Counter Force' on Alayas' side. Both forces are known to select champions, cause natural disasters, when the well beings of their side is in danger.
Concepts, ideas, image realization have a strong presence in Nasu's world. The most obvious example is Shikis' Eye of direct death, which depends on the users understanding of death and existence. Another example would be that of religion, a dead apostle who has a strong christian belief will be afraid of the cross because he projects such a weakness upon himself through his strong beliefs. Various abilities of the dead apostles are also dependent on concepts, the reality marbles itself are said to be corrosion of the mental world upon reality.
The conceptual weapons are designed to nullfy certain concept. The 7th testament, for example, is designed specifically to nullfy Roa's concept of immortality/reincarnation.
Kuzunoha Yukari 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #5 on Jul 17, 2004, 2:39am »
To Ishida:
Eh? Well, if it's trivia for trivia's sake:
Consensual Reality (White Wolf)--What we see as "real" is really defined by our perceptions and beliefs. Even the laws of science operate because we believe to be so. The Awakened "Mages" use their innate connection with reality's "source code," if you will, to alter the parameters of reality to suit their wills and beliefs. A Mage's beliefs determines how they can shape reality. A devout Christian might, through the power of faith, perform miracles or even call upon God to smite some poor shmuck. A Hermetic Wizard (they really did exist--go fig) might call upon spirits, use arcane mathematical calculations, and speak incantations of power while waving around wands, staves, spellbooks, or whatnot. A Tai Chi martial artist might use his Chi to perform feats of superhuman prowess, leaping weightlessly through the air, attacking another's pressure points, or moving with blinding speed. Wiccans, sensualists, reincarnationist fate-assassins, even Matrix-style hackers and psychics all operate their Magic thrrough their beliefs. Heck, in Mage, even belief in Science allows a Scientist (Mage in magical terms) create new and magnificent inventions--like giant robots!
The others shouldn't take as long to explain:
Mystra's Weave (D&D Forgotten Realms)--All magic is borne from another plane of reality just beyond our perceptions called The Weave, created by the Goddess of Magic, Mystra. Wizards and Sorcerors access the Weave through either esoteric knowledge or innate talent and they shape The Weave, which manifests itself physically, materially, or even etherically according to the key "spell" used to manipulate it.
It's All In The Chi (If it's got super martial arts, it probably relies on this)--Chi, or "Ki" according to the Japanese, is life force manifest as ever-present Breath, or air. Actually, it can be found in everything, material or metaphysical, even sunlight and water--but it's most prevalent in the air. Eastern mysticism as well as martial arts philosophies emphasize the interaction of this "life force" with just about everything, be it one's physical body or even the way your living room is arranged--Feng Shui, anyone? Chi operates according to certain rules, most notably Yin and Yang and Chakra points, and by following these rule Chi can be manipulated and utilized directly. And if reading any real life works of Eastern mysticism will tell you, manipulating Chi is pretty darn taxing.
Magic Just Plain Works, No Questions Asked (If there's no "metamagic explanation" to magic in a setting, then this is what they're using.)--No explanations given, no questions answered, just go with the flow and keep up your suspension of disbelief.
EXPECTO PATRONUM!!!!!! (That Potter Kid....)--Though close to the above "No Questions Asked" paradigm, there are certain suitably dramatic triggers and influences in magic that hint as to how and why magic might really work. Magic is treated as just another tool or science with one special requirement--magical talent. Though no actual "metamagic explanation" is actually given--not thus far, at least--there are times when magic responds without use of an actual spell. Often, these incidents are appropriately dramatic and used to illustrate strong emotions or potential. After all, That Potter Kid didn't cast an actual spell to make the glass case to the snake exhibit disappear, nor did his mom imbue him with her distinct resonance in order to protect through any spell. Both are suitably dramatic and befitting of a good moneymaking machine, I say! Well, there are also rampant non-spell magical talents--Parseltongue, Metamorphmagi, Animagi, Seers, and so forth--that hint that magic, even if never "demeaned through explanation" operates according to a combination of will, want, and need. Then again, it's all just a kid's book. Kids don't need explanations for this kinda stuff.
Ah.
I hope Tsukihime and Type-Moon has a unique "magical" paradigm.
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Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #7 on Jul 17, 2004, 3:22am »
Wow--to daimonth: I see....
Alright, so Nasu's world operates on Magic as supernatural existence through a unique take on Yin and Yang--Alaya and Gaia. Magic is a most direct manifestation of the dynamic back-and-forth conflict and interaction between the subconscious of humanity and the will of Earth.... Well, that's pretty darned cool!
[Well, I'm not even going to try to factor in the Crimson Moon at this point just yet....]
-Shinso vampires (I've heard the term Shinso in a couple of places... is Tsukihime the first appearance of the term?) are linked to Gaia's power, but I heard they all originated from the Crimson Moon. And that, so I hear, is one mean monster of a bad thing.
-Demons are basically Gaia's antibodies against humans and human powers?
-Demon hunting wards and magics work on demons but not demon hybrids--human genetics acts as a sort of "immunization" against that particular sort of magic/majutsu? I'm assuming that demon hunter's anti-demon wards, charms, and seals are all Sorcery and not true Magic.
-Psychic powers, though generally weak, don't have the sort of limitations of demon hunting powers and prove very useful in specialized situations. I never found out if the Eyes of Death count as psychic, or if they're an entirely different sort of power all together.
-Majutsu/Sorcery can be duplicated by Science and is therefore accessible to people without "true magic talent," as long as they're willing to study.
-Mahou/Magic cannot be duplicated as such and operates on magic circuits. I have a good idea about mana, as in it's an operative force beyond human perception and can be manipulated along certain rules and principles and thus can manifest effects in the plane of reality we--normal people--can percieve. And mana in Nasu's world is limited, right? Like Mercantilistic Wealth, only a finite amount of mana exists in the... "Mana Cycle" and a source of mana is extremely important.
[As far as the "operative force" description goes, Mana matches the Ether, Chi, and Essence of various other settings.]
-Mana and Odo...? Maybe they're both basically the same or similar "operative forces" but with slightly different properties--possibly even opposed or complementary ones?
-But Alaya being the subconscious of humankind and the source of humankind's power....
A cyclic power relationship that reminds me of Mage, where humanity's beliefs and consensus of said beliefs shape reality and the powers present in that reality. Psychic powers, demon hunting skills, Magic, all of these are borne from Alaya which is, in turn, an abstract representation of humanity, from a mythological standpoint. [I'll have to use these terms if I'm going to discuss this setting and cosmology as parts of a mythology and from an academic perspective--despite the decidedly non-academic source of my interest]
-Note: Even if Gaia and Alaya are generally opposed in situation and disposition, that doesn't mean that they're entirely inimical to each other's natures. After all, both opposed Crimson Moon, correct? And Demon Hybrids are demon-blooded humans, so the natures Gaia and Alaya/Humanity aren't oppesed out of actual and irrevocable nature as they are out of situation.
-Ah... last notes before I end this post.
It's nice to know that beliefs and perception, in Nasu's setting, have inherent powers all of their own! And thank you for clarifying the purpose and reasoning behind Conceptual Weapons.
And the Reality Marble....
In other words, what a Mage out of White Wolf would be doing out of sheer willpower if there was no Paradox to stop her. Sorry, Banquo--I had to put it in terms I'm familiar with. ^_^
The Reality Marble power might well be an ultimate power whose only requirements are the sentient will to imagine and the possession of the actual manifest talent to make one's imagination real. Both power sources attributed to Gaia and Alaya might well be capable of supporting this sort of "ultimate reality subjectivity" power, since the only apparent requirement is an Imagination to Realize.
Go fig?
[I use the term "Subjective Reality Field" to describe stuff like Reality Bubbles, Mage Sanctums, Do-Whatever-You-Want-Zones, and the like. I actually made the term up, thanks to my experience with various settings using something like it.]
- - - - - - - - - Isn't it fun talking about random trivia surrounding one specific setting?
Shinova 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #9 on Jul 17, 2004, 4:12am »
Quote:
Wow--to daimonth: I see....
Alright, so Nasu's world operates on Magic as supernatural existence through a unique take on Yin and Yang--Alaya and Gaia. Magic is a most direct manifestation of the dynamic back-and-forth conflict and interaction between the subconscious of humanity and the will of Earth.... Well, that's pretty darned cool!
[Well, I'm not even going to try to factor in the Crimson Moon at this point just yet....]
-Shinso vampires (I've heard the term Shinso in a couple of places... is Tsukihime the first appearance of the term?) are linked to Gaia's power, but I heard they all originated from the Crimson Moon. And that, so I hear, is one mean monster of a bad thing.
From what I know and have read, the Crimson Moon seeks to create a "True World" whatever that is. To do that, it needed access to Earth's natural ecosystem. It convinced, or rather tricked, Gaia into creating the Shinsos, making them rely on Gaia for power but be copies of the Crimson Moon. Gaia originally thought the Crimson Moon was advising Gaia to make these as a new defense against Humans.
Unfortunately, the fact that the Shinsos were copies allowed the Crimson Moon to exert control over them. Before he could do it completely though, Zelretch (a human mage, one of the five true magic users) destroyed Crimson Moon.
So the Shinsos were free somewhat from the Crimson Moon. Not completely though, since the Crimson Moon could re-manifest into any of the Shinsos.
btw, Shinso is a generic Japanese word for the highest-ranking vampire in a given context. The word-by-word English translation is more or less: True Ancestor. A more correct translation could be Progenitor. Not sure.
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-Psychic powers, though generally weak, don't have the sort of limitations of demon hunting powers and prove very useful in specialized situations. I never found out if the Eyes of Death count as psychic, or if they're an entirely different sort of power all together.
Shiki's "death gaze" is not a product of psychic power really, from what I know. For a moment Shiki was actually dead before he was revived by Akiha. During that time he became connected to the origin and end of all things and the universe, Akasha I believe.
In doing so he gained the ability to see the end of all things, and could pierce them and end their existences.
Quote:
-Majutsu/Sorcery can be duplicated by Science and is therefore accessible to people without "true magic talent," as long as they're willing to study.
-Mahou/Magic cannot be duplicated as such and operates on magic circuits. I have a good idea about mana, as in it's an operative force beyond human perception and can be manipulated along certain rules and principles and thus can manifest effects in the plane of reality we--normal people--can percieve. And mana in Nasu's world is limited, right? Like Mercantilistic Wealth, only a finite amount of mana exists in the... "Mana Cycle" and a source of mana is extremely important.
[As far as the "operative force" description goes, Mana matches the Ether, Chi, and Essence of various other settings.]
Actually I think both sorcery and true magic depend on mana and magic circuits, it's just that sorcery can be duplicated by technology. For example, a magical wave of fire can be duplicated by a flamethrower. A healing spell can be duplicated with medical technology.
True magic cannot be currently duplicated by technology. For example, one of the five true magic is the manifestation of spirits. I think this means resurrection, which medical science has no hopes of duplicating today. Zelretch's jewelry magic is, in simplest terms, inter-dimensional travel and access. No technology to duplicate that today.
At least that's what I could gather.
Quote:
-Note: Even if Gaia and Alaya are generally opposed in situation and disposition, that doesn't mean that they're entirely inimical to each other's natures. After all, both opposed Crimson Moon, correct? And Demon Hybrids are demon-blooded humans, so the natures Gaia and Alaya/Humanity aren't oppesed out of actual and irrevocable nature as they are out of situation.
I think Crimson Moon was a bigger threat to either one than they were to each other, so they got rid of Crimson Moon first, then went back to war against one another.
The #1 Ancestor of the Dead Apostle, by the way, is Primate Murder, whose name is supposed to be translated as Primate Murderer I think. In other words, the perfect human-killing machine. The White Beast of Gaia, I believe. You can say it's a champion of sorts. (it's currently under the control of Altrouge Brunestud though)
Quote:
And the Reality Marble....
In other words, what a Mage out of White Wolf would be doing out of sheer willpower if there was no Paradox to stop her. Sorry, Banquo--I had to put it in terms I'm familiar with. ^_^
The Reality Marble power might well be an ultimate power whose only requirements are the sentient will to imagine and the possession of the actual manifest talent to make one's imagination real. Both power sources attributed to Gaia and Alaya might well be capable of supporting this sort of "ultimate reality subjectivity" power, since the only apparent requirement is an Imagination to Realize.
Go fig?
[I use the term "Subjective Reality Field" to describe stuff like Reality Bubbles, Mage Sanctums, Do-Whatever-You-Want-Zones, and the like. I actually made the term up, thanks to my experience with various settings using something like it.]
- - - - - - - - - Isn't it fun talking about random trivia surrounding one specific setting?
Reality Marble isn't really THAT fantastic. Lots of people can do that, and it's merely changing reality within a small space in space-time, normally oneself.
Now Marble Phantasm, on the other hand, is manipulation of space anywhere one can imagine. Arcueid used it to create the world 1000 years in the future in the present time for a short while. It can also be used offensively: dissecting people with blades or pockets of vacuum or energy at far ranges, etc.
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 335 Location: Osaka, Japan
Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #10 on Jul 17, 2004, 7:30am »
Mostly random tidbid...
Most sorcery was magic in the past. As technology got advansed, magic got fewer. So, I think both magic and sorcery share "how it works" in basic.
You need magic circuit to use sorcery (and magic, too, I think). Number of magic circuit is inborn trait. Most people don't have it at all. And if you don't have magic circuit at all, you can't use sorcery, period. ...Well, it seems there're some altanatives, though. Activating magic circut casues pain, for human beings are not supposed to use such supernatural power. It seems number of MC runs in the family, so menbers old sorcerious families usually have greater number of MC. And such people make much effort to increase their child's number of MC.
Sorcerors have tatoo-like "magical engrave" somewhere on their body, if they are heirs of heirsses of srocerious family line. It works as something like "external magic cricuit". It's legacy of your ancestors; you can extract magical knowledge or such. It gives great power to successors, but it's "almost curse", for it's essense of your every ancestors's strugle and despair.
Psychic power. It's described as "misplaced ability to some people" and psionist is said to have "defferent(or wrong) channel(as TV channel)". Say, ordinary people can move their hands. Controlling their own hands is just a ordinary ability of their brains. But some people have inordinary ability, such as moveing someone's hands, seeing peoples's thought, twisting and crushing objects by just looking them and so on. Psychic powers are generally unique and cannot be inherited. But Nanaya family madd it possible by incestous method. And psychic powers can be much more powerfull than sorcery; it's said you can't deplicate Shiki's magical eye of direct death or Rider's magical eye of petrification by srocery.
Hybirds. Some people accept demonic blood to get supernatural power.
In Japan, their're demon hunters, but their power is specialized to bind demons, so they face hard times to fight against hyblids. Hybids have partly human, so demon hunters' power won't work very well against them. In such case, psychc power is useful; it's unique and don't follow usuall law of sorcery, it can be small but critical advantage to fight hybrids.
Reality Marble. It's manifetation of user's "心象風景" (sorry, I don't know good English word for this.) Inportant thing is, you can't choose what kind of thing will happen when you use Reality Marble; it's fixed and depend on user's mind. Reality Marble is one of the highest level of sorcery. Usually, duration of reality marble is very short, for "counter force" deny it.
Araya and Gaia. They don't directory conflicnt, I think. Aim of Araya is to protect human beings, and aim of Gaia is to protct the earth. They could conflict certainly, but they can co-work, too. After all, human being need the earth to survive (yet, at least).
Quote:
The Reality Marble power might well be an ultimate power whose only requirements are the sentient will to imagine and the possession of the actual manifest talent to make one's imagination real. Both power sources attributed to Gaia and Alaya might well be capable of supporting this sort of "ultimate reality subjectivity" power, since the only apparent requirement is an Imagination to Realize.
This description is more like Marble Phantasm.
As for Marble Phantasm, in recent episoed of manga Tsukihime, Arcueid mentioned about it. There is a description "to use Marble Phantasm(to be one with the univers)".
You are the bone of your wrongness. Know-it-all is your body, and delusion is your blood. You have created over a thousand misassumption. Unknown to Truth. Nor known to Source. Have ignored shame to be corrected many times. Yet, those hands will never hold anything. So as you pray, Unlimited Bullshit Wrongness.
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Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #11 on Jul 17, 2004, 4:30pm »
Whoo.... Let's get things straight, now~
-Reality Marble, Marble Phantasm...
Okay, I see where I got things backward. ^_^ So Reality Marble is something of a lesser "Subjective Reality Field" or, rather, an entire category of powers related to the will's corrosion of reality? And thus, it's limited directly by its affiliation with a "will," therefore limiting its effect according to the user--something of a "superpower" in comic book terms, in that it's directly associated with a particular character. Marble Phantasm is specifically Arc's ultimate power, through which entire worlds are possible, then. I think I heard it was a Reality Marble type power--true? Yes, no? If so, then I must say it's a very broad, god-level power and appropriate given Arc's station in the Type-Moon Cosmology.
--Eyes of Death, connection ot the Akasha. Well, darned. I had a character who was a living gateway to the Akashic Record, and now I'm not sure if I should change that to avoid comparison! [Sigh] Well, it's good to hear that somebody's making use of the Hindu 5th Element, and it might as well be Shiki. But for some reason, in Kagetsu Tohya, did Nanaya not have the power to see the "death spot?" Was that just a product of the unique "situation" in KT or was that put in to hint that "Tohno Shiki" might be a little more important to his psyche's powers than the much-feared-and-revered Nanaya? As in, while the Nanaya psyche has the skills and the Mad Spiderlike 3D Technique, he's not as powerful if Tohno Shiki isn't at the very least semi-active in order to attack the "death spot?" After all, if Tohno Shiki were completely subsumed whenever Nanaya came out, then he wouldn't have any idea of the events that transpire when Nanaya becomes dominant. Or Nanaya could just be a defense mechanism and, because he's not the primary facet of the psyche, isn't the source of Shiki's most potentially damaging power?
If I missed something, somebody please tell me!
-And back to what most interests me as far as the Tsukihime Magic discussion is concerned...
So Majutsu/Sorcery and Mahou/Magic are ultimately divided by what can and can't be duplicated by Technology? I'm reminded by Technology's influence on magic in Mage when I consider that Science in Tsukihime might very well be "lessening" the power of Magic by removing what could only be done by True Magic and relegating that to Sorcery, thereby reducing that particular effect's "importance" in the Magical Paradigm. Well, the only way for that to be possible, as far as I can see, is that humanity's belief plays a part in defining the distinction between Sorcery and Magic. How? Well, I've got an idea of how that might be possible...
Humanity's subconscious is Alaya, the source of Humanity's power, right? Well, in the mythic ages long past, science wasn't very dominant and True Magic was very powerful, very wonderful, indeed. But as science grew more advanced, different forms of True Magic were lost as Science could much more efficiently take their places (why spend all that effort and go through all that pain to create a stream of fire when a flamethrower's sooo much more convenient!). In the mind of the average Human, Science gained dominance and, in Humanity's subconsious, a "paradigm shift" gradually occured where less and less emphasis was placed on the various form of True Magic. As various forms of Magic began losing their special status in the human subconscious, they also lost "priority status" in Alaya's "counter force" paradigm, therefore losing support and becoming relegated to Sorcery.
Something truly "impossible" according to contemporary technological standards as mentioned in EvoSpace's Encyclopedia would, by definition, have to be very miraculous indeed. But then again, Sorcery allows one to use the magical power of one's surroundings...does true Magic not allow you to do the same? Would Sorcery's power come from its accessibility and ability to borrow the power fro mone's surroundings but Magic's power comes from the fact that it's the only darned way to do something?
Then again, I could be completely off-track in assuming Magic and Sorcery are in any way better or worse than the other--but I can't help but place greater emphasis on the "impossible."
Well, I certainly am getting a much more comprehensive view on magic in the Tsukihime setting, if I do say so myself.
[But I'm still lost as to how Psychic Powers ignore the principles of Yin and Yang.... in order for these powers to do so, there has to be some effect of Yin and Yang over Magic in the setting, but I'm not seeing any examples of this being true.]
Kuzunoha Yukari 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 680 Location: Lovely, Overcast Seattle
Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #12 on Jul 17, 2004, 4:47pm »
I'm putting this is a separate post because it warrants special attention...
I think I got the impression that Sorcery could be done without access to mana and magic circuits because I hadn't fully realized the real difference between Mahou Tsukai and Majyutsushi when I first read them and misread the Encyclopedia by not taking into account the rather specific terminology to differentiate between 'magician' and 'sorceror.' I got even more confused when I read "magicians aren't neccessarily skilled sorcerors" and didn't take into account the diffrence between them.
That, and Magic is referred to as the 5 kinds of True Magic, and I guess some residual WW reasoning might have very well slipped in. Sorry~
Shinova 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 741
Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #13 on Jul 17, 2004, 5:10pm »
Quote:
Whoo.... Let's get things straight, now~
-Reality Marble, Marble Phantasm...
Okay, I see where I got things backward. ^_^ So Reality Marble is something of a lesser "Subjective Reality Field" or, rather, an entire category of powers related to the will's corrosion of reality? And thus, it's limited directly by its affiliation with a "will," therefore limiting its effect according to the user--something of a "superpower" in comic book terms, in that it's directly associated with a particular character. Marble Phantasm is specifically Arc's ultimate power, through which entire worlds are possible, then. I think I heard it was a Reality Marble type power--true? Yes, no? If so, then I must say it's a very broad, god-level power and appropriate given Arc's station in the Type-Moon Cosmology.
*scratches head sifting through your post*
I THINK you have it down. Nero uses a reality marble to keep 666 beasts within his form, for example. Arcueid uses Marble Phantasm to materialize a castle out of thin air that exists permanently.
Both are "impressions" of one's will against reality, but I think the difference is power and range. The reality marble seems to have more power within a very confined space, namely one's own body, but the marble phantasm has vast range but is restricted to the changing of physical space only.
It should be noted, though, that Warakia/Tatari is a slight exception it seems in that for one or two nights he can project his reality marble over large areas.
Quote:
--Eyes of Death, connection ot the Akasha. Well, darned. I had a character who was a living gateway to the Akashic Record, and now I'm not sure if I should change that to avoid comparison! [Sigh] Well, it's good to hear that somebody's making use of the Hindu 5th Element, and it might as well be Shiki. But for some reason, in Kagetsu Tohya, did Nanaya not have the power to see the "death spot?" Was that just a product of the unique "situation" in KT or was that put in to hint that "Tohno Shiki" might be a little more important to his psyche's powers than the much-feared-and-revered Nanaya? As in, while the Nanaya psyche has the skills and the Mad Spiderlike 3D Technique, he's not as powerful if Tohno Shiki isn't at the very least semi-active in order to attack the "death spot?" After all, if Tohno Shiki were completely subsumed whenever Nanaya came out, then he wouldn't have any idea of the events that transpire when Nanaya becomes dominant. Or Nanaya could just be a defense mechanism and, because he's not the primary facet of the psyche, isn't the source of Shiki's most potentially damaging power?
If I missed something, somebody please tell me!
Nanaya didn't have the power cause he was a figment of Shiki's mind, imo.
Quote:
Something truly "impossible" according to contemporary technological standards as mentioned in EvoSpace's Encyclopedia would, by definition, have to be very miraculous indeed. But then again, Sorcery allows one to use the magical power of one's surroundings...does true Magic not allow you to do the same? Would Sorcery's power come from its accessibility and ability to borrow the power fro mone's surroundings but Magic's power comes from the fact that it's the only darned way to do something?
I think you're making something more complicated than it needs to be. Sorcery can be duplicated with tech, true magic cannot. That's the only difference, I believe, otherwise they're pretty alike in most respects.
Greatness invites envy, which unravels the fragile bonds between people. Being someone special warrants a terrible price.
Kuzunoha Yukari 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
"I'm not here."
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 680 Location: Lovely, Overcast Seattle
Re: Magic and Whatnots of Tsukihime « Reply #14 on Jul 17, 2004, 5:39pm »
So the difference between the two types of "Magic" is largely an artificial one? Well, that kills my buzz just a little bit. But at least I got that out of the way.
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