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VampirePharmacist
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Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Thread Started on Nov 24, 2004, 3:38pm »
Forgive me for posting this, but I can't seem to find the exact reason why Ciel is immortal on the site. I know it's something to do with her being a Rao's reincarnation and there was some kind of time paradox or something so nature try to prevent that by freezing her time. But what exactly is the "mistake" in the first place? I can't seem to find it is bugging me. Can someone pls tell me why Ciel is immortal or point to me where I can read up on that. Thank you.
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #1 on Nov 24, 2004, 3:49pm »
Okay. Ciel = Roa.

Ciel was killed.

Roa lived.

To keep Ciel dead Roa has to be dead, but Roa is not dead, so Ciel can't be kept dead, so she doesn't die.
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #2 on Nov 24, 2004, 4:04pm »
Does that mean all those who were Roa in the past can't die either?
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #3 on Nov 24, 2004, 4:15pm »
Apparently all of them are according to my friends...
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #4 on Nov 24, 2004, 4:28pm »
I think Ciel was an exception. Ciel was the best host magicwise.

Or.... would it be an obvious plot hole which everyone agreed to ignore?
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #5 on Nov 24, 2004, 4:32pm »
As I was reading the Official Timeline thread, I wondered, does it have something with Roa transfering into 10 year old Tohno Shiki instead of a baby at birth?
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #6 on Nov 24, 2004, 7:26pm »
Eh?

I think Roa was inside Tohno Shiki since he was born and when he was 10 years old, suddenly decided to wake up.
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #7 on Nov 24, 2004, 10:53pm »

Quote:
Eh?

I think Roa was inside Tohno Shiki since he was born and when he was 10 years old, suddenly decided to wake up.


But if Ciel is 24 years old today and got killed 8 years ago by Arcueid as Roa...
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #8 on Nov 24, 2004, 11:21pm »
Maybe I'm making this up, but maybe Ciel's high magic potention and her regret for what she did to her city, and most importantly, to her family, is what kept her alive. Or maybe, since Tohno Shiki was alive when Ciel died, and Roa decided to use that body as a host, that caused conflicts since two hosts were alive in the same or very close period of time... or maybe I should just shut up and let the experts talk ;D....

And I wasn't aware that only 7 years passed since Ciel's "death" and Roa's new reincarnation. I was under the illusion that something like 50 or so years passed :P. Guess that you learn something new every day...
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #9 on Nov 24, 2004, 11:42pm »

Quote:


But if Ciel is 24 years old today and got killed 8 years ago by Arcueid as Roa...


.....

That's.. weird.. Why haven't I thought about that earlier?

Need to visit the Tsukihime Lab once again... but I feel too lazy...
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #10 on Nov 25, 2004, 12:19am »
The way I understand it is that Ciel was suppose to have died when Arcueid killed Roa and Her. Only that she didn't(high magic potential? Link to Roa?), thus she becomes an existance that is not suppose to exist. A paradox which the nature deal with by sealing it within a certain time frame which is where her immortality came from. Her regenerative ability can be seen as a 'rewind' of time to the state before she was injured.

When Roa was killed, the original source for the paradox was resolved(death of another existance that shouldnt exist). The equation is balanced once again and her body regains its normal time flow.
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #11 on Nov 25, 2004, 3:22am »
humm...but that's still doesn't make sense. If Ciel is special, then she should have regeneration ability on her own, or awaken by Roa. I don't see why nature see it as a paradox. It's like saying Shiki has the eye of death, so nature must make him an immortal to prevent paradox. However, we can all see there is no conflict in cause and effect here, so why is Ciel immortal by way of having her time freeze by nature. If her death somehow prevent Roa from existing in the present, like if Ciel was sent to the future before she gave birth to Roa. She cannot die before she gave birth to Roa so nature must prevent her death, the classic time paradox. But in Ciel case, both Roa's soul and Shiki(2) has no relation to Ciel in a way that her death will jeprodise their existence. So why is her immortality depends soly on Roa's existence.

Also the French village portray in the anime does not look like a modern village. I always has the impression that Ciel is very old. It does seem kinda weird. I think it would be more interesting to have Arc and Ciel to be ancient beings. It will give them more mystique.

BTW what are the chances for a Tsukihime sequel, or remake, or prequel? I like the anime, but it just doesn't seem to do the whole Tsukihime universe justice.
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #12 on Nov 25, 2004, 6:53am »
I wasn't sure how it originally happened in the first place either...

So I did some research about Ciel's past...

- Born in 1976. She turned into Roa when she was 16.

- In Roa's last incarnation, he didn't have enough time to look for a good host, so he just chose a one that has an high physical potential. That's why Ciel's family just runs a bread shop and not rich. However, he didn't know that she also had an high magical potential. Her physical potential is later shown by the fact that she was chosen to become a member of the Burial Agency.

- She was conscious while Roa was massacring her town, but she had no control over her body.

- Her dead body was taken to the Church for research because it was a rare case where the body turned back into a human after turning into a vampire. 3 years after getting killed by Arcueid, she ressurected herself while being researched. The Church tried to kill her in every way to deny that such crazy thing can't happen, but since she never did, they decided to user her instead.

Hmm... I still don't see where it logically connects to the conflict even after putting these facts together. Do you? I think we can safely say that Ciel's a special case though. Those who were incarnated by Roa supposed to lose their original consciousness and they sort of fuse together with Roa. Also the fact that she turned back to human after dying...


Quote:
What are the chances for a Tsukihime sequel, or remake, or prequel? I like the anime, but it just doesn't seem to do the whole Tsukihime universe justice.


What are you talking about? Tsukihime never became an anime! =P

Well realistically, chance of another Tsukihime anime is slim, especially a sequel of the Shingetsutan version. A Fate anime has more chance. However there's an example of Comic Party which got a remake after 3,4 years. To Heart which got a sequel after 5 years... So maybe we'll see something after the Tsukihime manga is finished, or after a commercial remake of the Tsukihime game gains enough popularity? Then perhaps after all that a Tsukihime 2, an official sequel with a grand story will be possible. Patience... >.<


By the way, I just realized something:
Isn't Roa's ability to reincarnate similar in nature to the supposed Reality Marble of Crimson where it can appear inside any of the True Ancestors?!
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #13 on Nov 25, 2004, 6:57am »
Ciel's body is quite a tough one. It has around 100 times the mana capacity of any normal human being, and it also has a strong tendancy to 'live'. It can heal a lot quicker than normal people.

So Roa Ciel was killed by Arcueid, but the body somehow managed to survive, while Roa's mind drifted into Tohno Shiki. And so a paradox is made, with Ciel being alive and Roa dead. That's what gives Ciel her immortality.

'Talk..' actually has some information about Ciel, and it says that at the time of 'Talk..', although Ciel did lose her immortality, her body is still quite tough, and she won't be killed easily.
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Re: Why is Ciel immortal again?
« Reply #14 on Nov 25, 2004, 9:25am »
FYI, this is taken from Tsukihime.
(In the school at night, somewhat before Shiki and Ciel made love.)



Quote:

「少女の死体は教会に運ばれて、吸血種から人間に戻った死体のサンプルとして保存されました。
　……けど、どういう因果だか知りませんけど、その子の躯というのはすごく特殊な躯で、人並み以上の蘇生能力があったんです B
　その子は三年たったある日、よせばいいのに死から目覚めてしまったんです。
　……おかしいですよね、ロアという魂に見捨てられたただの脱け殻のくせに生きかえっちゃうんですもの。

(omited some text)

「……まあ、ようするにその子は矛盾しているんです。
　その子はロアとして生まれた人間です。たとえ十五歳までの人格が一人前の人格だっていっても、魂の名前はロアなんです。
　その子はその子でありながら、ロアでもある。
　だから、ロアが生きているのにロアであるその子が死んでいては矛盾している。
　ロアという存在が生み出す子孫……娘であるその少女は、ロアより先に死ぬ事はできないんです。

「この世界はわずかな綻びがあれば、世界が世界自身のためにその綻びを修復します。
　ですから――その子は、ロアという転生する魂が消えないかぎり、永遠にそこにあり続けてしまう。　他の誰でもない、この世 Eがかってに『治して』しまうんです。

「司祭殿はその子を『輪から外れている』と言っていました。ロアが生きているかぎり永遠に止まったまま。
　歳をとることもできませんから寿命では死ねませんし、消し炭にしても時間が巻き戻って元に戻ってしまう」

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