sssssz Master of Entropy and Chaos member is offline
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The RPG's servants? « Thread Started on May 17, 2004, 6:28pm »
It was suggested that we shouldn't get off topic, so Evaron started a thread about the rules and settings. But I had questions about the servants and it seems that roles of servants will be very important.
Question1. Will the servants be played by players or NPCs? In F/SN relationship between masters and servants were very important, but it's hard to simulate that. We will need at least 14 people to do that, and it will be hard to get them in one time. I'm not against the idea of servants as players, but looks like it will be hard...
Question2. If servants are played by NPC, then will choice of servants be random? That was how it was in F/SN.
Quesion3. Is it good idea to make list of servants-to-be? I thought it would be a lot easier for GM to make people find potential servants, but then they will have to post it somewhere, so it won't be random anymore. And there are some cases that classes of servants being disputed, but to discuss that it has to be posted.
Banquo 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #2 on May 17, 2004, 9:53pm »
NPC controlled Servants? How would that work? In all respects I think we won't have over 4 people playing at once. Honestly I think a group of people with servants acting against the GM who has a the other masters and servants acting as midbosses leading up to the dark shadow is the easiest way to do it. To get exp and lvl up the masters and servants we should allow sidequests for the church or mage association.
When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt, Run in little circles, wave your hands and shout
CaptainOverkill 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #3 on May 17, 2004, 9:54pm »
1. I spoke to Evaron last night and after we discussed options it seemed like a good idea to me that servants be controlled by the GM. If the player controls both his own mage and servant, it's going to destroy any tension that may exist between the mage and the servant. Alternatively, we could assign players "double roles" and give them servants not connected with their own mages to control, but that might make things a little complicated.
2. I wouldn't mind being allowed to pick my own servant and then giving my decision to the GM privately. It'd help other players from discerning the servant's true identity.
3. I do have some heroes to suggest, however, if we make a general pool and let the GM randomly assign them, but I'll wait until a final decision is made until I show my hand. I think that the class/identity of the servant should be a consensus between the player and the GM.
Captain_Overkill Evaron's Witless Minion My hobbies: Blowing things up, talking about blowing things up, posting about blowing things up, studying military history to better blow things up... well, you get the idea. I also play Exalted way too damn much.
Banquo 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
#5 of the Dark Six: Flame on!!
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Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #4 on May 17, 2004, 10:16pm »
Quote:
I spoke to Evaron last night and after we discussed options it seemed like a good idea to me that servants be controlled by the GM. If the player controls both his own mage and servant, it's going to destroy any tension that may exist between the mage and the servant. Alternatively, we could assign players "double roles" and give them servants not connected with their own mages to control, but that might make things a little complicated.
Ugh your making this too complicated. If we could actually physically meet each other then, we might, might make it work. Can't we just simplify it to a danger of overusing your mana with less than loyal servants.
Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #5 on May 17, 2004, 11:02pm »
Quote:
Question1. Will the servants be played by players or NPCs? In F/SN relationship between masters and servants were very important, but it's hard to simulate that. We will need at least 14 people to do that, and it will be hard to get them in one time. I'm not against the idea of servants as players, but looks like it will be hard...
I was not anticipating more than 4 or 5 people playing tops and quite frankly 7 pc master/servant pairs would be an absolute nightmare to run I think. We can have additional masters and such just be npcs. That way we have people to eliminate without killing other players right off the bat.
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Question2. If servants are played by NPC, then will choice of servants be random? That was how it was in F/SN.
It was random to a degree, but you could use items to summon them remember. Shirou and his foster father both used Saber after all. So I don't think this is a problem.
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Quesion3. Is it good idea to make list of servants-to-be? I thought it would be a lot easier for GM to make people find potential servants, but then they will have to post it somewhere, so it won't be random anymore. And there are some cases that classes of servants being disputed, but to discuss that it has to be posted.
My opinion is everyone should decide privately on a servant, note it with the gm along with class, and work from there. If someone can't find the time to browse some mythology or something on a few websites in order to think up one servant then I don't really have much hope they'll show up to a game and play for any length. Class I think should pretty much be defined by the player so long as it isn't rediculous like someone making a Merlin Berserker.
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NPC controlled Servants? How would that work?
Ok, basically this is how it works. You pretty much design your initial servant and you have your initial 3 controls on them. Thus you have power over your initial servant and you have 3 basic safeties in place, plus the servants personality leanings.
As attributes for personality you could pick a servant who is loyal to you personally or hates you. This means you either have 3 safeties only, or could have an infinite amount if no one steals the servant like Caster did. If you do nothing then one assumes they would decide based on circumstances.
On controls you could go with the default or sacrifice some for additional points.
In any case, the GM would play the servant as an NPC, basically following a personality outline you created and doing their actions for them. It would be an assumption they'd basically act in your interests unless a sufficient force of some kind (them hating you, magical interdiction, etc) worked to stop it. This of course requires the GM not doing something ratty, but then so does not having to fight a servant with all EX stats and a Berserker mindset.
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Honestly I think a group of people with servants acting against the GM who has a the other masters and servants acting as midbosses leading up to the dark shadow is the easiest way to do it.
Again, I agree this is the easiest way to do things. My complaint with this remains though that this just doesn't sound in the spirit of the grail war. Where's the alliance building/breaking, collecting of additional servants, having to watch your back when around presumed allies, etc. Do you kind of follow what I'm getting at here?
The sidequest ideas sound fine and I do like that. There isn't a reason people might not periodically work together or join forces and this could be such an area. However, just like on Christmas the first year of World War I where a truce was called and the Germans and British were friends for a while, that didn't stop them from going back to being enemies. Or from examining the fortifications of the other side while they were being friendly with each other.
Quote:
I spoke to Evaron last night and after we discussed options it seemed like a good idea to me that servants be controlled by the GM. If the player controls both his own mage and servant, it's going to destroy any tension that may exist between the mage and the servant. Alternatively, we could assign players "double roles" and give them servants not connected with their own mages to control, but that might make things a little complicated.
Ugh your making this too complicated. If we could actually physically meet each other then, we might, might make it work. Can't we just simplify it to a danger of overusing your mana with less than loyal servants.
Ok, I agree the double roles is way too complicated. That'd just get confusing fast. I don't think I could handle that personally anywhere. Otherwise I think I've commented on this issue.
The overuse of mana and loyalty thing is basically something you'd need if the system was very rule based. I think though that the design is enough insurance and then we could just leave it to the way the story progresses. I don't really feel a need for having things heavily grounded as we're basically just playing this as a small group of people. We aren't putting out an official RPG guide of this. A little looseness if fine in my book.
Though just to ask everyone, are people fine if the system doesn't perhaps rely heavily on rules and dice outside of the combat? That was kind of my thought on the subject but I see this could be a point of contention.
Also, is there an issue between more story based and more straight fighting (i.e. hack and slash)? I was kind of assuming the former myself.
CaptainOverkill 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
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Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #6 on May 17, 2004, 11:15pm »
I agree with pretty much everything you said, Ev.
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Though just to ask everyone, are people fine if the system doesn't perhaps rely heavily on rules and dice outside of the combat? That was kind of my thought on the subject but I see this could be a point of contention.
Also, is there an issue between more story based and more straight fighting (i.e. hack and slash)? I was kind of assuming the former myself.
Being a person who is not exactly an expert RPer, I would be much more comfortable with a system that involves less dice and is more story based.
Captain_Overkill Evaron's Witless Minion My hobbies: Blowing things up, talking about blowing things up, posting about blowing things up, studying military history to better blow things up... well, you get the idea. I also play Exalted way too damn much.
Banquo 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
#5 of the Dark Six: Flame on!!
Joined: Apr 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 1,044 Location: The land of misfit boys.
Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #7 on May 17, 2004, 11:26pm »
Great all we need someone with enough time and brain power to write a story, and if were lucky a good story.
Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #8 on May 17, 2004, 11:45pm »
I can write or at least contribute ideas (depending on whether I'd be running it or whether someone else is running it and wants any suggestions). I'm actually going to college and working through things to become a fantasy author so I have some experience in a basic storyline. I've only GMed rarely though. So far however I'm just contributing any spare time to creating a character.
The stealth rating is worthwhile, though I think that would be limited mostly to masters deliberately hiding their identity more. I think after a while most people know where everyone lives so unless they are working on avoiding detection...
Edit: I'm not sure why I answered the other thread in this post too but I did.
VeX 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
An Annoyance at Most.... That and one who conveniently disappears....
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 1,430 Location: Manila, Philippines
Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #9 on May 17, 2004, 11:57pm »
-Will the servants be played by players or NPCs?
Lets have them as NPCs.
-If servants are played by NPC, then will choice of servants be random?
Player chosen, GM approved....
-Is it good idea to make list of servants-to-be?
Lets have a small list of servants so that we'd have some sort of basis for our characters.... and if we're not up to making our own servants....
-On the Dice...
Dice for combat, sure... outside, lets just use dice for special occations (I try to hit a bottle from 50 ft with a thrown rock)... we'll just use a simple Difficulty measure (roll a 16 or higher to succeed) or something...
-Story or Combat.... Story.... it would be more in the spirit of things... the interactions, the what ifs....
I never thought something so wrong could be so.... appropriate..... (I'm going to run out of little dots '.' at the rate I use them....)
Banquo 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
#5 of the Dark Six: Flame on!!
Joined: Apr 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 1,044 Location: The land of misfit boys.
Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #10 on May 18, 2004, 12:09am »
Does that mean we get to swap servants? We could do it strategically. I mean lets say one of us is really low on the energy pool but we need energy for let say... Rider. So I could go "Hey Vex let me borrow Rider so I can transfer some mana before we do our next sidequest."
I never thought something so wrong could be so.... appropriate..... (I'm going to run out of little dots '.' at the rate I use them....)
VeX 死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors member is offline
An Annoyance at Most.... That and one who conveniently disappears....
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 1,430 Location: Manila, Philippines
Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #12 on May 18, 2004, 12:57am »
So, do we create our servants following Banqo's Primate Evaron?
Name: Affinity: (Lawful/True/Chaotic) / (Good/Neutral/Evil) Servant Type: Any of the 7 Classes of Fate Level: HP: Mana:
Armor Class:
(Basic stats range from 3-18) Strength Dexterity Constitution Wisdom Intelligence Charisma Luck
These would be the Modifiers to help you survive (Depends on level and class).... Fortitude (Will you faint due to bloodloss?) Reflex (Will you successfully dodge a sprung arrow trap?) Willpower (Will you be bound by a certain spell?)
Special Abilities: (Skills that don't use mana?) Ability Name: Description:
Magic Abilities: (Noble Phantasms?) Spell Name: Mana Cost: Range: Effect:
Then the fun part... Background Story: Personality:
Re: The RPG's servants? « Reply #14 on May 18, 2004, 1:40am »
VeX's first response is basically in line with what I was thinking, if in different words. So far as a list I don't think its really necessary or would be very helpful. At least unless someone feels like making attributes for a bunch of servants just in case someone is bored and doesn't like character creation. If its just names I think we have those previous threads and people can think along those lines.
Some areas to look: Greek Mythology Norse Mythology Western literature involving the supernatural
Those are all some areas that are both easy to obtain in english and could present some good ideas. I'm sure there are plenty in Japan and stuff too but that's a bit more difficult for some of us to find. No reason to be restricted though if you want to do that and the character fits.
Quote:
Does that mean we get to swap servants? We could do it strategically. I mean lets say one of us is really low on the energy pool but we need energy for let say... Rider. So I could go "Hey Vex let me borrow Rider so I can transfer some mana before we do our next sidequest."
The only way you could make that statement more obviously pornographic is if you were speaking as Rin and Vex was replaced with Shriou and Rider with Saber.
That aside I suppose you could do that. If you trusted the other person enough. Personally I'd find it a very questionable thing to do myself.
I think so far as character sheets, we should pick a definite system first. If we are going to be fairly light on rules or just make something up to work for the moment it'd probably be easier if we just copied the way Fate did it so far as comprehension. I at least have a better handle on what an A stat is than an arbitrary number.
And personally if we aren't doing D&D I'd just as soon drop things like Reflex and Will. I always found that overly complicated. The fewer numbers to crunch the happier I'll be. Really, I mean, there's no reason in my mind you couldn't figure out whether you'd collapse AND determine your hit points say from just an endurance stat. I like the streamlining of Fate stats.
I say basically do about as many basic stats along with HP and MP as there is for Fate itself and that should do it for the base numbers we have to calculate with. Just make the attacks themselves something like a "50x Mana stat, Costs 30 MP" or something and then include any modifiers which would effect the raw damage.
Basically as an example (which I have not tried to balance at all, lets be clear):
EX Attack: Costs X creation points. Base EX Value to Create ATtack: 10 Points Base attack X x Attribute where X is leftover points. Range increased by Y per point. Mana used decreases by S per point. Targets increased by Z per point. Special Effect W costs V points
You could gain points back from having the converses of the abilities and there would be differing attributes for armor abilities of course or creating specials like Hercules regeneration which doesn't follow a set rule of any kind. I think the GM could probably eyeball them for a general range when they came up so far as power.
An A+ attack might cost S creation points and give only 8 points to play around with or however things work. Then you could have a character with really high stats, good skills, things like that, or in the case of an Archer you'd have some total cheese EX moves that you rely on extensively because you are so much weaker.
Aside from attack moves and stats you'd have to consider skills and special abilities and what level they are. Then you could also have some points as I noted assigned to things like the servants relationship to the master and other little quirks that could prove useful. Though that might be better served being in a mage character sheet.
Mages I think could work in a very similar manner. They'd just be more focused on magic, wouldn't have so much resilience, and wouldn't have any super cheese moves. A mage might have like 50 points to be built on while a servant had more like 100.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Though as an aside on servants, I just wanted to bring this up: I don't see any need to limit it so there is only one Rider or one Saber or anything. That would be rather nitpicky in my mind and just create an area for contention. Anyone object to that?
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