Servant Stats

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Servant Stats
Post by tornadowolf on Apr 18, 2006, 12:35am

Some questions and curious oberservations. I've already brought some of these questions up in another thread, but these are the questions that have not been answered.

The Mana stat – does it simply measure how much mana a Servant can contain at one time?

When a Servant is summoned, are they fully stocked on mana, or does the Master have to provide all of it from the beginning?

Where does Magic Resistance come from?

It apparently has no relation to Divinity at all -- Gilgamesh has less Magic Resistance than Rider, who has far less Divinity. The only stat that Archer has more of than Gilgamesh is Magic Resistance, and Archer has no Divinity at all.

It does not seem linked to to sorcerous talent or skill -- Caster has no Magic Resistance at all, while Saber, who was not any kind of sorceror, has the highest Magic Resistance of all.

Neither does Magic Resistance have any relation to a Servant's equipment -- Lancer has no item to provide such protection, while I am told that Gilgamesh can summon something from his vault to improve his Magic Resistance. Also, Saber's Magic Resistance remains high even though Avalon is inaccessible to her, hidden as it is inside Shirou's body.

Though it seems a silly theory, the best pattern that I can discern is that Magic Resistance has something to do with beasts. Saber, Lancer, and Rider all have the highest Magic Resistances of the Servants. Saber is reputed to be part Dragon, Lancer has some connections to Dogs, and Rider is connected to Pegasus, became a monster, and is in general a mistress of beasts.

But Archer has no similar connection to any beast, and yet his Magic Resistance is the highest of the five remaining Servants who featured in the Fourth War, despite the general crappiness of his stats. So even this silly theory falls apart.

I suppose that it might be a Servant's Class that determines their level of Magic Resistance, with Sabers getting the highest, Lancers and Riders getting a strong amount, and Archers getting the lowest level while still having ANY. But I fail to discern a reason why only those Classes would recieve such a thing, and it does not explain why Gilgamesh has less MR than EMIYA.

Saber's stats in The Moonlight World include an ability called "Mana Burst." This ability is vaguely described in the Fuyuki Wiki.

My reference comes almost totally from the anime, so I hope any ignorance on my part will be forgiven. But in the anime, before Rider unleashes Pegasus to escape the school, she claims to have a Mana Burst. And the only similar phenomenom displayed by Saber has been the use of Excalibur. Rider's Moonlit World stats do not include Mana Burst. I am therefore somewhat confused.

The Disengage and (Heart of) Harmony abilities (attributed to Lancer and Assassin, respectively) are explained as if they were abilities in an RPG, but do not explain how they function in reality. Thus, they also confuse me.

In the anime, Archer claims that Independent Action is one of the specialties of the Archer Class. He seems to be saying that normally, a Servant would not be able to stay and fight an opponent while the Master runs away. Are Servants unable to stray outside a certain radius of distance from their Masters? A radius that is extended by the Independent Action ability?

And I already know that Independent Action allows a Servant to remain in the world for a certain amount of time (determined by Rank) without a Contract with a Master.

Saber was able to continue fighting even after being speared through the chest by Gae Bolg. Archer was able to continue fighting Berserker in spite his injuries (which, according to some sources, included the severing of his entire left arm). Yet neither of them have "Battle Continuance" of any rank.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by rokettodankairyu on Apr 18, 2006, 2:22am

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The Mana stat – does it simply measure how much mana a Servant can contain at one time?

Pretty much.

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When a Servant is summoned, are they fully stocked on mana, or does the Master have to provide all of it from the beginning?

They likely have their own mana to start with; Shirou couldn't supply anything to Saber, and she was fine after being summoned; she just didn't stay that way.

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Where does Magic Resistance come from?

It apparently has no relation to Divinity at all -- Gilgamesh has less Magic Resistance than Rider, who has far less Divinity. The only stat that Archer has more of than Gilgamesh is Magic Resistance, and Archer has no Divinity at all.

It does not seem linked to to sorcerous talent or skill -- Caster has no Magic Resistance at all, while Saber, who was not any kind of sorceror, has the highest Magic Resistance of all.

Neither does Magic Resistance have any relation to a Servant's equipment -- Lancer has no item to provide such protection, while I am told that Gilgamesh can summon something from his vault to improve his Magic Resistance. Also, Saber's Magic Resistance remains high even though Avalon is inaccessible to her, hidden as it is inside Shirou's body.

Though it seems a silly theory, the best pattern that I can discern is that Magic Resistance has something to do with beasts. Saber, Lancer, and Rider all have the highest Magic Resistances of the Servants. Saber is reputed to be part Dragon, Lancer has some connections to Dogs, and Rider is connected to Pegasus, became a monster, and is in general a mistress of beasts.

Right, I think we can agree the beast type incurs magic resistance.

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But Archer has no similar connection to any beast, and yet his Magic Resistance is the highest of the five remaining Servants who featured in the Fourth War, despite the general crappiness of his stats. So even this silly theory falls apart.

Archer's drawing his magical resistance from an amulet, not his blood. It *might* be the same amulet Rin used to revive Shirou; I'm not sure. It's simply a talisman, and as such, there's no way its anywhere near as powerful a defense as Saber, Rider, or Lancer's inherent resistance.

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I suppose that it might be a Servant's Class that determines their level of Magic Resistance, with Sabers getting the highest, Lancers and Riders getting a strong amount, and Archers getting the lowest level while still having ANY. But I fail to discern a reason why only those Classes would recieve such a thing, and it does not explain why Gilgamesh has less MR than EMIYA.

I would think it to be the level of beast; Saber's a dragon, allegedly the most powerful of the monsters in the TYPE-MOON world. Rider is drawing power from her beast attribute as well, but unless she goes Gorgon, she probably won't surpass Saber in that respect. I know too little about Cuchulainn to accurately go into detail about any beast relationship he may have, so I shall leave that investigation up to you.

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Saber's stats in The Moonlight World include an ability called "Mana Burst"; This ability is vaguely described in the Fuyuki Wiki.

My reference comes almost totally from the anime, so I hope any ignorance on my part will be forgiven. But in the anime, before Rider unleashes Pegasus to escape the school, she claims to have a Mana Burst. And the only similar phenomenom displayed by Saber has been the use of Excalibur. Rider's Moonlit World stats do not include Mana Burst. I am therefore somewhat confused.

Bursts can be initiated from command seals, I believe. Archer was using bursts by exhausting Rin's seals against Berserker.

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The Disengage and (Heart of) Harmony abilities (attributed to Lancer and Assassin, respectively) are explained as if they were abilities in an RPG, but do not explain how they function in reality. Thus, they also confuse me.

No idea on either of these, sorry.

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In the anime, Archer claims that Independent Action is one of the specialties of the Archer Class. He seems to be saying that normally, a Servant would not be able to stay and fight an opponent while the Master runs away. Are Servants unable to stray outside a certain radius of distance from their Masters? A radius that is extended by the Independent Action ability?

It's a spirtitual link between master and servant; as such, there's no physical radius that should interfere with a servant's existence. Otherwise, Lancer couldn't have attacked Archer and Rin in the prologue. "Independent Action" is a secret skill; it's not illustrated unless an Archer gets freed from a master's command spells. Normally, servants will rapidly get weaker and eventually disappear; Archers prolong this phenomenon by invoking that ability. As such, Archer was able to battle so many people in UBW and Gilgamesh survived even though Kotomine was dead.

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And I already know that Independent Action allows a Servant to remain in the world for a certain amount of time (determined by Rank) without a Contract with a Master.

...then why are you bringing it up? ~.~;

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Saber was able to continue fighting even after being speared through the chest by Gae Bolg. Archer was able to continue fighting Berserker in spite his injuries (which, according to some sources, included the severing of his entire left arm). Yet neither of them have "Battle Continuance" of any rank.

I would imagine "Battle Continuance" to be a hardcore version of simply "fighting on". As in, I break Lancer's leg, and he snaps it back into place. That sort of thing. Ugh, sleepy. X.x;

Re: Servant Stats
Post by tornadowolf on Apr 18, 2006, 3:22am

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[quote author=tornadowolf board=general thread=1145338547 post=1145338547]They likely have their own mana to start with; Shirou couldn't supply anything to Saber, and she was fine after being summoned; she just didn't stay that way.

That's the way it seemed to me.

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Right, I think we can agree the beast type incurs magic resistance.

The thing is, I can't agree. It was the silliest theory I came up, and doesn't fit.

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Archer's drawing his magical resistance from an amulet, not his blood.

I recall the Moonlight World stats comparing either Archer's or Gilgamesh's Magic Resistance to the level of protection provided by an amulet, but I have never heard of or read about Archer using an actual amulet for protection. Rin's amulet, if I'm not mistaken, was merely a container for an immense amount of mana which was completely drained to save Shirou's life after he got stabbed by Lancer. So there should have been nothing magical about it afterwards.

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Saber's a dragon

No one has yet explained how this is possible. King Arthur's last name was Pendragon, and perhaps a vision or two symbolized Arthur or his father as a dragon, and perhaps Arturias' men attributed dragon characteristics to their God King of War, but Saber appears to be very human (and VERY mammalian ^_^) to me.

Her legend tastes of Dragon, so as an Epic Spirit she has something of the Dragon about her. This makes immediate sense to me.

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Rider is drawing power from her beast attribute as well, but unless she goes Gorgon

It should be noted that a beast is different from a monster. A beast is an animal, and a monster is/was a person. Medusa became a monster. And, apparently Medusa was not the mother of Pegasus in the Nasuverse.

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I know too little about Cuchulainn to accurately go into detail about any beast relationship he may have, so I shall leave that investigation up to you.

As a boy, Cuchulain was attacked by a man's ferocious dog, which he killed. To repay the man (as the attack had been an accident) Cuchulain swore to act as the man's dog until Cuchulain could provide a dog equal to the one he had slain. During this time, Cuchulain served admirably and became known as "the Hound of Ulster." He would eventually fulfill his promise of providing a dog, thus earning his freedom.

Cuchulain also lived under two Gaeas. The first was to never refuse food offered to him (or offered hospitality, I'm not sure). The second was to never eat the flesh of a dog. (He met his end when witches offered him cooked flesh of dog -- not sure which Gaeas he chose to break.)

That's about the extent and breadth of Cuchulain's connection with dogs as I know it. And, as far as I can determine, it is a stronger connection than Arturias ever had with with dragons, and a connection of nearly the same nature -- association in the minds of others, weaving the character of the beast into tales of Cuchulain's and Arturias' own characters.

But if a dragon, mightiest of phantasmal beasts, offers a MR of Rank A, do you think the nature of a dog, of the order of mundane beasts, will offer a MR of Rank B?

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Otherwise, Lancer couldn't have attacked Archer and Rin in the prologue.

*snaps fingers* That's right. I'd remembered that point and forgot it.

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...then why are you bringing it up? ~.~;

To learn if IA had a second effect in addition to the other, of course.

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I would imagine "Battle Continuance" to be a hardcore version of simply "fighting on". As in, I break Lancer's leg, and he snaps it back into place. That sort of thing.

Fighting on despite the blood loss of losing an arm (in addition to other injuries) or two holes (entry and exit) through one lung and directly next to your heart is not "hardcore?"

Re: Servant Stats
Post by admin on Apr 18, 2006, 3:53am

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It just means Lancer knows when to retreat. Behind the story of the actual game, he supposedly fought with all 6 Servants and survived.

Assassin used Tsubame Gaeshi twice in a row on Saber without any fear, even after revealing his secrets. I think its that kind of mind set that won't allow him to screw up.

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The Gae Bolg didn't even hit Saber's vital spot. And even then, she wasn't able to fight Berserker in good condition.

I think severe injury means this severe.

In this scene, he didn't fall until Bazette was completely dead. He also stabbed Kotomine to death, even after getting his heart stabbed in UBW.

I'm sleepy too... x.x

Re: Servant Stats
Post by tangowr on Apr 18, 2006, 5:24pm

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[quote author=rokettodankairyu board=general thread=1145338547 post=1145344951]
The thing is, I can't agree. It was the silliest theory I came up, and doesn't fit.

Except that's how Nasu set's it.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by redcomet15 on Apr 18, 2006, 5:47pm

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Bursts can be initiated from command seals, I believe. Archer was using bursts by exhausting Rin's seals against Berserker.

People keep mentioning how Archer used up Rin's command seals during his fight with Berserker, but I don't think that's the case at all. When Archer began his battle, Rin should have only had one command seal remaining. Her first she used to subdue Archer in the Prologue (not seen in the anime) and her second she used to call back Archer during their initial encounter with Saber. Archer couldn't have used Rin's command seal, because the last seal Rin had disappeared after Archer died.
Also, I have to wonder if Servants can actually use their Master's command seals at their own discretion. Are there any instances of this in the game? A Servant being able to use a Master's command seals seems to defeat their purpose; aren't the command seals supposed to be a Master's tool to make his/her Servant do as he/she desires?

Re: Servant Stats
Post by kieran on Apr 18, 2006, 7:31pm

Regarding beast types - as "beasts" presumably refers to animals, and magic is a function of nature, maybe those with beast connection have a deeper affinity for the natural world, that somehow shields them from the "unnatural" effects that sorcerers might attempt to create? That would account for things like Reality Marbles - although it means they're helpless against Marble Phantasm.

Medusa is usually affiliated with serpents, by the way - as I think Rider's page states. In this case, it's not Pegasus she gets it from. And as for Saber - King Arthur's not supposed to be a girl, either, so why grumble?

Re: Servant Stats
Post by ouabain on Apr 18, 2006, 11:03pm

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Bursts can be initiated from command seals, I believe. Archer was using bursts by exhausting Rin's seals against Berserker.

But in the anime, Archer clearly uses up one of Rin's seals in the middle of the Berserker fight (it's right before Rin says, "No he's still trying his hardest" or something to that effect). You see one of her command seals glowing right before that happens.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by arai on Apr 18, 2006, 11:14pm

To clear up the dragon issue, in the "making" of Saber, Merlin actually incorporated a dragon element in her before she was born. She's not a dragon herself, but she has some of their powers (insane amount of mana).

Re: Servant Stats
Post by tornadowolf on Apr 18, 2006, 11:34pm

And what about Archer's and Gilgamesh's Magic Resistances?

Re: Servant Stats
Post by ouabain on Apr 18, 2006, 11:37pm

Maybe they were given token magic resistance since they are Knight classes?

Re: Servant Stats
Post by tornadowolf on Apr 19, 2006, 12:05am

And Gilgamesh has better MR than Archer how?

Further, why would the knight Classes get Magic Resistance? If it's to balance the scales between non-sorcerous warriors and the Caster class, I think it's a bit overbalanced. Also, it doesn't explain why the Rider Class gets MR, but the Berserker Class does not.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by drmchsr0 on Apr 20, 2006, 5:49am

Nasu Logic.

Now you know.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by depletiongarden on Apr 20, 2006, 5:55am

Well Berserker can resist any B class attacks and below. I think the MR and stats aren't really that dependant on class but on the hero itself. The heroes are just put in their respective classes because of their stats and how they fight. So its all a bit random and funny.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by tornadowolf on Apr 20, 2006, 9:24am

This still doesn't provide me with guidelines for determining the Magic Resistance of a Servant I'm writing up myself.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by legacyzero on Apr 20, 2006, 9:55am

I have a feeling that MR is determined by several factors, namely being the identity of a Servant, and the fame associated with said Servant. Class also is a factor, but that merely enhances what ablilities a Eirei might have already. Eg. Saber's god like MR, stemming from her dragon-trait (high MR if you take it from various sources) and the boost from her class.

For example, if Hero A has the ablility to 'absorb' magic attacks, but is severely unknown in mythology or history, then when he is summoned as a Servant, his ablility would be a C-rank at best.

Hero B, however, can only take a minimal amount of magical damage when he was alive but was insanely famous. (every child knows his name and exploits) So when he is summoned as a Servant, his MR may be equal to that of Hero A or greater. Provided that they are, of course, are of the same Servant Class.

If you take and apply standard RPG rules in Servant stats, the Berserker class would definitely not get much MR (with the exception being Heracles), for the sole reason being that they are the 'Raw blunt dmg dealers' and hence their physical strength is off-set by their magical weakness.

On the Knight classes getting MR, (again, my spectulation), the Saber Class is known to be the most outstanding of Classes, so their MR shouldn't be shabby. As for the Archer, applying normal RPG rules, their MR are also above average. (but still pales in comparsion to a cleric or other spell-casting classes) And if Lancer was comparable to a Dragoon, it should explain why they get MR.

Again, it boils down to their traits in their previous life and how much their fame and class would enhance what they already have.

Hope that this was satisfactory to ya, Inugami.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by royalknight on Apr 20, 2006, 3:17pm

I agree with pretty much most of what legacyZero said, except for a slight reversal. Magic Resistence is very much an inherent class ability. There's somewhat of a reason why MW's Servant Status page doesn't have it listed under "skills;" mainly because they are actually listed in the game as class abilities. General rankings would change slightly depending on the Eirei summoned, but not enough to change, say, two ranks or something. EMIYA having higher Magic Resistence than Gilgamesh might simply be because 1.) the burial cloth he's wearing, or 2.) his inherent ability to detect and resist magical energies (like when Shirou was still able to walk around when Blood Fort - Andromeda was active). It's all part of the balancing game that Nasu/Justica/Makiri/etc. used to make to have some semblance to an RPG-like war out in the middle of nowhere.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by tornadowolf on Apr 20, 2006, 3:56pm

I considered the idea that Magic Resistance had a number of factors to be the most viable theory, with the three major factors being Class, general power level, and sorcerous/magical abilities.

But Caster has absolutely no Magic Resistance at all. Not only is a Caster Class Servant vulnerable to the physical prowess of the knight Classes, the Caster Class has no defense in its own area of expertise? Meanwhile, the knight Classes have little to fear from either a Caster's magical OR physical prowess.

Also, while equipment can improve Magic Resistance's effective Rank, I don't think it is a factor in determining the actual Rank. Saber's Magic Resistance is not effected by the unavailability of Avalon.

Speaking of equipment and Magic Resistance, I've been operating under an assumption I want tested. Does Magic Resistance offer any protection from Noble Phantasms?

Also, if a C-Rank Noble Phantasm is equivalent to an A-Rank normal attack, why can God Hand cancel out C-Rank Noble Phantasms, but not A-Rank normal attacks?

Re: Servant Stats
Post by royalknight on Apr 20, 2006, 5:00pm

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But Caster has absolutely no Magic Resistance at all. Not only is a Caster Class Servant vulnerable to the physical prowess of the knight Classes, the Caster Class has no defense in its own area of expertise? Meanwhile, the knight Classes have little to fear from either a Caster's magical OR physical prowess.

- A Caster of Medea's level would definitely have trouble against Saber, but she can still defeat the other Knight classes merely by using more powerful sorcery. If you can't use A-rank sorcery and you're a Caster, then you're a pretty sorry excuse for a Caster.
- You can get rid of a Saber easily by just killing off their Master. You basically just have to have the mentality of a high-class mage, not a melee'ing Servant.
- In regards to Magic Resistence, maybe Caster can... I dunno... cast a spell? Unless you're going up against a Rain of Hougu (not exactly something you'd expect, ever), Argos or even Vacuum Shift would work fine.

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Also, while equipment can improve Magic Resistance's effective Rank, I don't think it is a factor in determining the actual Rank. Saber's Magic Resistance is not effected by the unavailability of Avalon.

Hence why I also had the less simplistic explanation of Archer EMIYA's innate defensive abilities.

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Speaking of equipment and Magic Resistance, I've been operating under an assumption I want tested.

That sentence sounds dangerous (read: pretentious). We're not "under" you in any shape or form, you know.

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Does Magic Resistance offer any protection from Noble Phantasms?

Noble Phantasms are not sorcery/magecraft/thaumaturgy, and are really quite well beyond it. A solidified "mystery" that's beyond conventional understanding. If anything, they are closer to conceptual weapons, though they may or may not all actually be that way.

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Also, if a C-Rank Noble Phantasm is equivalent to an A-Rank normal attack, why can God Hand cancel out C-Rank Noble Phantasms, but not A-Rank normal attacks?

The effects on the normal stuff would make a C Rank Hougu appear to have the power of an A Rank normal attack. But the concept or mystery behind the weapon is its real power and rank, not mundane laws of physics. Hougu and normal attacks really can't be compared; it'd be like comparing the fast food with a five course meal at a five-star restaurant.

God Hand isn't canceling the end result power of the attack, but the inherent rank of the concept behind it. God Hand is an armor that seems to pretty much resist any sort of attack, whether it be a normal attack (Shirou throws stick at Berserker), a curse (Rin's Gandr Shooting), a low-ranked Noble Phantasm like Kanshou and Bakuya (when used normally), since the concept of God Hand is greater than them. Likewise, Hougu that don't match up to God Hand in terms of concpet are defeated by them, as well.

A very loose "real-world" example.
Normal Attack
Rank C: Firing an SMG at a tank. No penetration of armor.
Rank A: Firing a high-velocity autocannon with AP rounds at a tank. Penetration of armor.

Hougu Attack
Rank C: Firing an SMG loaded with magical bullets that cause an explosion after hitting the target. No penetration of armor.
Rank A: Firing a high-velocity autocannon that magically fires cruise missiles at a tank. Penetration of armor.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by tornadowolf on Apr 20, 2006, 5:44pm

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If you can't use A-rank sorcery and you're a Caster, then you're a pretty sorry excuse for a Caster.
- You can get rid of a Saber easily by just killing off their Master.

You present good points.

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In regards to Magic Resistence, maybe Caster can... I dunno... cast a spell?

I had considered that. But I was unconvinced that a Caster should have to go to such effort to protect themselves from opposing Masters when those who cannot cast spells get such protection freely.

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Hence why I also had the less simplistic explanation of Archer EMIYA's innate defensive abilities.

I contest the idea of the burial cloth, but I DO agree with you about Shirou's sorcerous abilities being a factor. As far as I know, Gilgamesh never learned any sorcery.

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That sentence sounds dangerous (read: pretentious). We're not "under" you in any shape or form, you know.

Then, sadly, the sentence sounds far different than what was intended.

The only one under anything is myself -- as I said, I was under the assumption. If it was the phrase "want it tested" that you're refering to, I couldn't think of a better choice of words at the time. I certainly don't see myself "over" you at all.

That would be ridiculous, given that I am your "kohai" in Type Moon.

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Noble Phantasms are not sorcery/magecraft/thaumaturgy, and are really quite well beyond it.

Then they are items of magic? As in, that supernatural power above and beyond sorcery?

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A solidified "mystery" that's beyond conventional understanding.

So sorcerous understanding is considered conventional in this context?

And "solidified mystery" is a very odd phrase to me. The most sense I make of it is "object with something profoundly mysterious about it."

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If anything, they are closer to conceptual weapons, though they may or may not all actually be that way.

I do not understand conceptual weapons either.

There are a few paradigms throughout Type Moon's background that contradict my own worldview. I have apparently found another in this concept of "concepts."

Re: Servant Stats
Post by depletiongarden on Apr 20, 2006, 9:45pm

Conceptual Weapon
Magical weapons that are effective against immortal vampires and beings. Rather than inflicting physical damage, it has a power to nullify the power that is behind the immortality. The longer the weapon exists in time (as in decades and centuries), the more magical power is acquired, and the more powerful it gets.

The Naasuverse is a bit weird.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by royalknight on Apr 20, 2006, 10:51pm

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You present good points.

I eat Arai Krispy Treats. Though, lately, they've been laced with cyanide... Err... I mean. A lot of stems from running through Fate and UBW and seeing how Caster reacted to situations in there. Caster is pretty smart about how to go about things. The other part was that I was planning a fanfic for a past Grail War, which Hollow Ataraxia promptly shattered. So I ended up doing a lot of research on Servants strengths and weaknesses, tactics, and Grail Wars, mostly by diving through old threads.

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I had considered that. But I was unconvinced that a Caster should have to go to such effort to protect themselves from opposing Masters when those who cannot cast spells get such protection freely.

While I've yet to play the HF route, Caster sounds like she could hold her own against most opponents, granted she isn't ambushed or hit by a rain of swords. I think it's primarily meant that Knight classes should be dealt with through melee, rather than just having a Caster generally just nuke the entire area and call it a gas liine explosion. If it makes it more fair to others but slightly less fair to a Caster, then I don't think Justica would mind so much.

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I contest the idea of the burial cloth, but I DO agree with you about Shirou's sorcerous abilities being a factor. As far as I know, Gilgamesh never learned any sorcery.

The burial cloth is probably less likely, but I myself wouldn't rule it out until there's an actual reference to the the difference between the two Archers.

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Warrrgh... There's this other post in regards to the more off-topic aspect/thingy. Specifically, given your prevailing image, it sounded a lot like you were an administratoring some sort of thought experiment, detached from BL, as opposed to someone merely asking a question.

Also, don't really refer to yourself as a kouhai, since we're all pretty much learners here (for the most part). Some people just happen to have more answers than others. Which is less about aptitude and more about mass of knowledge.

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Then they are items of magic? As in, that supernatural power above and beyond sorcery?

So sorcerous understanding is considered conventional in this context?

And "solidified mystery" is a very odd phrase to me. The most sense I make of it is "object with something profoundly mysterious about it."

Hougu aren't quite magic, but aren't far from it, either, most notably Excalibur and Ea. Mmm... It's sorta like mysticism and beliefs getting ingrained into some sort of weapon. It works on a different system than sorcery, but has the power to match or overcome it. I like to think of it like, sorcery and whatnot is like your standard police or military; they are well-equipped and trained thoroughly. Hougu are like, Sentai or Kamen Rider or other tokusatsu (live action) heroes. They represent certain ideals or ancient discipline with super powers that close the gap between fighting styles and modern weaponry, sometimes by bringing in even more advanced weaponry.

To a mage, sorcery can be pretty conventional. It follows a set routine, gets power from the Root, and is ultimately revolved around producing a practical result (hence the use of the term thaumaturgy). Hougu is like... the entire little system in a nice little neat box. It's formed from beliefs, concepts, legends, mysticism, the imagination, and lots of intangible stuff. In the Fate prologue, it's described as being like "miracles." Though, these are rather specific miracles for specific situations, so it's not exactly Magic, which is by it's nature far more universal in scope and closer to a real miracle.

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Well, if there is every one centralized theme in all of Nasu's works, it seems to be the "power of concept." I think I remember reading an older post about that explained conceptual weaponry, but I forgot what it said at the time. It was like Toranth or Shinova or someone. Something to the effect that some individuals ground themselves down through the power of a concept, like Reincarnation ability or Chaos body or God Hand armament. Conceptual weapons shake people off their mortal coil through the power of their own concept. Seventh Holy Scripture denies a reincarnation ability; Black Barrel brings the concept of "natural death" to what it strikes; Chokushi no Magan brings about an entity's future death crashing down into "now." It's basically using ideas as weapons or armor, through the strength of the mind or something.

Also, you'd be surprised on how easily one can contradict another person's world view, but no one's saying that it Nasu's world view is going to coincide with ours. In fact, I think it's so detailed, intricate, and unique that a clash is probably unavoidable. you can't really understand Nasuverse completely if you bring your own world view into play.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by tornadowolf on Apr 20, 2006, 11:48pm

So a solidified mystery is like crystalized magic. Hougo are Materia!

You have actually played through the games and do NOT consider yourself my "sempai?"

Setting aside the issue of concepts to chew on another day...

New question. Excalibur is ranked as an A++ Noble Phantasm. Is this rank refering to its inactive state, or to the special attack blast?

Like, if Saber were to just hack away at someone with Excalibur without Invisible Air to increase the damage, what would you say the Rank of the attack is?

Re: Servant Stats
Post by royalknight on Apr 21, 2006, 12:17am

Heh... materia might not be too dissimilar of an explanation.

I've played through through two routes, but I understand about 5% of the actual text (not including H scenes). For me at least, 5% is pretty bad. So, I'm not too deserving of a title at all ~~unless you call me Shishou or Goshujin-sama~~, really.

Excalibur at A++ refers to the burst attack by using its ~~buster rifle~~ beam of light blast. Hacking away, Excalibur is more like a nice sword with a normal attack. I don't know what it's exact power level is, but I'm pretty sure Invisible Air ends up being stronger than a normal Excalibur swing.

In general, any + modifiers to Hougu are basically saying that their true power is their multi-target burst attack (Excalibur, Gae Bolg [Death Flight], Bellerophon).

Re: Servant Stats
Post by arai on Apr 21, 2006, 12:24am

This isn't exactly my favorite sort of topic since I'm only taking bits and pieces of information that's spred throughout whatever Kinoko has written and I don't really have a "complete" theory on this yet.

Basically, there's the Root, or Akasha or whatever. While it's the embodiment of everything, since there are no boundaries/walls between it, it might as well be "void" itself.

From that, there would be a pillar of energy/information connecting Akasha to a lesser body that interprets that information and is able to take on a "form" with defined limits and rules. That would be our "world" or Gaia.

Now, under the "interpretation" set up by Gaia, lesser counterparts/organisms are born. However, these organisms possess a power that is able to alter and those rules/physical laws since just like their "father" they have direct access to the grand source. Using this power, they give the existing forces of nature more comprehendable/convenient "forms".

However, this power is taken away because in order to continue "existing" as a planet, the set plan has to be followed. The problem is, the power to shape the existing information/matter into concepts still exists on an unconscious level (even though the direct path no longer exists), which is how derivations of the original "gods", demons (which are supposed to be the representation of human ignorance and whatnot), and whatnot are born or change form over time.

So from there on, the solidified, "stabilized" embodiments of unconscious human desires are given form by the greater counterparts of the world (gods) or are naturally accumulated and reinforced on already existing items/weapons based on fame.

The problem is that the "rules"/concepts of the world are also being reshaped by humans towards another direction -> science. Which means that the previously existing weapons/beasts/gods/magic are gradually being cycled out to a different sort of place that's not pleasant at all. Weapons like conceptual weapons would be operating by forcing existing laws/concepts of the world onto their targets (but still aren't meant for real physical damage), while phantasms (while probably really similar) are geared for both "physical" and "conceptual" damage but can no longer exist in the present world because they're "obsolete".

....I think the general idea is more or less

Conceptual weapons - using the existing rules of nature/world to eliminate/weaken the unnatural
Noble Phantasms - weapons that have either already been or have reached the point where they've become "crystallized" concepts.

Berserker's God Hand is supposed to be similar to a Conceptual Weapon, but it isn't really a pure one. I guess back when he was alive, there were nonsensical "rules" like that running all over the place.

.....Of course, I'm pretty sure Kinoko will include a sentence in his next work that'll totally destroy this theory.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by evaron on Apr 22, 2006, 5:12pm

Archer:

Magic Resistance: D
Nullifies single action sorceries. Magic resistance that's only about a simple amulet.

I took that off the main site and presume that explains some things with Archer at least?

Evaron

Re: Servant Stats
Post by katake on Apr 22, 2006, 10:23pm

Caster should have some sort of spell that reduces magic resistance x_x go find her an ff8 meltdown drawpoint

altho i suppose if you summon a caster with a A-EX level attack spells, then resistance goes out the window anyways

on magic resistance, it does seem to have to do with the servants status in their original form or granted by an object of some sort. Inherent proctection seems more potent than that granted by an object.

(Blood) Saber (A) has the dragon factor in her blood.
(Blessing) Lancer (B) has the protection of the godess Morrigan.
(Artifact) Archer (D) has an amulet with low grade anti-magic properties.
(Blood) Rider (B) also has a resistance simalar to Saber, having Gorgon blood which has high magic properties (ranging from a perfectly lethal poison to resurection)
(Artifact) Gilgamesh (E) Full plate gold armor. gold is held to have low grade anti-magic properties in many fantasy worlds. this one im not all that confident on. or maybe he has some small token like archer. blah.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by arai on Apr 22, 2006, 10:40pm

Caster's cloak does have anti-magic properties.
At least from what I heard.

I dunno about Archer's resistence though since the amulet he has is supposed to be completely void of maryoku (magic energy/prana) and he actually gives his to Rin at the prologue.

Re: Servant Stats
Post by katake on Apr 23, 2006, 12:26pm

hmm, maybe the amulent still has some light resistance, or maybe its something else then

Caster dosnt list with any resistance tho, if her cloak gives resistance that might screw up my inherent/object theory. anyone got anything more on Caster's cloak?

Re: Servant Stats
Post by jseabolt on Apr 23, 2006, 1:31pm

While I don't know anything about how it's worded in Japanese, the line Evaron quoted from MW --

Quote:

Magic resistance that's only about a simple amulet.

-- could also be interpreted as not that it comes from a simple amulet, but something that about on par with a simple amulet. In other words, an inherent property of Archer and not from an amulet, but could easily be reproduced with one if he didn't have it.