Which of these do you think would make the best...

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Which of these do you think would make the best...
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 13, 2006, 11:33pm

Yeah, I know poll-things like this should be in another forum, but I wanted commentaries instead of blind votes since this pertains to an (interactive) fanfic I'm working on. So, which of these do you believe are

a. Best-fitted to their role (as a class)

AND

b. Most powerful among the given choices?

A. Sabers:

1. Arturia
2. King Arthur
3. Lancelot
4. Joan of Arc

B. Archers:

1. William Tell
2. Paris of Troy
3. Teucer, half-brother of Ajax
4. Eurythus, descendent of Apollo, god of Archery
5. Odysseus (Ulysses)

C. Lancers:

1. Saint George (Ascalon)
2. Saint Longinus (Longini)
3. Achilleus (He uses an Ash Spear, never a sword)
4. Lu Bu or Guan Yu

D. Riders:

1. Hannibal (War Elephant)
2. Lancelot (Steed)
3. Death, War, Pestilence, or Famine (Pale/Red/Green/Starving Horses)

E. Assassins:

Do we even have a choice in this? They're all supposed to be Hassan, right? Well, I for one will defy this fiat!

F. Casters:

~~1. King Solomon the Wise~~
2. Ptolemaeus (of Egypt)
3. Aristotle
4. Medea
5. Morgan le Fey
6. Grigory Rasputin

G. Berserkers:

1. Samson
2. Sir William Wallace
3. Egil Skalla-Grimsson

If you don't know any of the above, I'd be glad to provide a concise background. Thanks in advance.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 14, 2006, 12:45am

A. Sabers

I wonder why you list King Arthur and Arthuria as seperate people. they are one and the same in F/SN. IMO, Joan is probably an inspiration for the "Female Arthur", but I believe she was the weakest of the people you listed. She's a great leader and all, but isn't quite a godly fighter (they never really shown her fighting)

In any case, I would choose Lancelot. OTHER then OBVIOUS reasons (read my old posts), he is generally described in the old (as old as 11th century) and modern sagas of King Arthur to be the greatest knight in the world. In "definative" vesrion of the Arthurian tales of Thomas Malory's (Le Morte D'Arthur):

1) He can beat Arthur in single combat.
2) Killed Agavane and 12 other knights 1/2 naked and unarmed
3) Killed Gawain (who is said to be as good as Gareth..execpt without the "special ability") and Gaheris while in berserker rage.
4) Beats Gareth in any time of the day, except noon where he draws. Gareth's strength increases as the Sun gets brighter...think Superman. And that is when he is holding back.

And that is what I can remember from the top of my head..he probably did other things as well.

B. Archers

A Good Archer can actually be Simo Hayha, who was a Polish sniper in the WW2 who downed 542 Russians. Not many "Archers" in history can claim to have downed 542 enemies in a war now..can they? He even used the crappy Mosin Nagant...which really is horrible as a sniper rifle.

But from the list...I think...Euythus.

C. Lancers

I really have no idea. Archileus seems like a good choice, but if they know who he was all they have to do is to target the legs...Kinda take out the drama in the fights..no?

D. Riders

Lancelot isn't very known for his steed riding, unlike Gareth, so him as a Rider is probably improbable. Genghis Khan would ROCK, but he isn't there.

I guess Hannibal then. Summon his elephant of Death to stomp others.

F. Casters

Isn't there already a Solomon somewhere in the Natsu-verse? I can't remember if he was the same as the King Solomon.

But if so, I think Solomon is probably the strongest. He DOES have complete control over the 72 demon rulers of hell. Between those rulers, they have over 200 legions of demons under them...and can almost effect every aspect of humanity with their magic...

That power is pretty overwhelming.

G. Berserkers

John Talbot can be a good Berserker. But probably Egil Skalla since he WAS the original Berserker in our world's stories.

In any case, is there a "make your own servant!" topic here?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by bluegunner on Oct 14, 2006, 12:53am

That's a hard one... but I think:

Saber: a) Arthur or Joan of Arc. Arthur was a great swordsman, whereas Joan wsan't particularly known for her swordsmanship (that may or may not e true, but that's what I think). Of course, Jaon would likely have more charisma etc after leading an army...

Saber: b) Arthur. Lancelot is more suited to a Rider, I think, and I can't really think of any Noble Phantasms for Joan, other than maybe some form of Divine Intervention by the Christian God. Maybe some form of raising morale or something... but you probably have something in mind.

Archer: a) and b) I would say Paris, as William Tell would have no reason to make the contract required of a Servant, and I can't find anything on the others. But as far as I know, Paris was guided by the God Apollo, and so his archery would be far better than the others.

Lancer: I really have no idea.

Rider: a) I think Lancelot. I'm not sure that Hannibal was all that great a rider, even though he did a good job getting over those mountains with those elephants ^_^ But riding would have been second nature to a knight of the round table, and considering the skillls one would have required as a knight, I think he would be the best suited. The Horsemen of the Apocalypse are already powerful and would see no reason (and I'm not sure if they could) for making the covenant as technically they aren't dead yet.

Rider: b) Hannibal. I mean, a large war elephant would trample anything in it's way without having to call upon a great source of mana to do so, unlike Medusa's Pegasus in Fate... but maybe it would be balanced by requiring a large amount of mana to sustain its presence. Also, having a high charisma would surely help.

Caster: a) and b) I'm a Medea fan, but to be fair I think I have to say that Solomon is the best choice. He was given a ring with which he could control angels and demons, as well as having power over the world in which he lived, and I think he also had the power of prophecy, although he was a little short-sighted in some parts (causing 40,000 men to fall to their deaths off his carpet, for example) Aristotle as Caster would be interesting, although the man didn't have the power to control the five elements, rather he came up with the concepts, so I'm not sure where that would go, and I can't find any magical references to either Ptolemy or Rasputin.

Berserker: a)Hmm, that's a hard one too, but it would be between William Wallace and Samson. I don't see Samson's reason for making a covenant and wanting the Grail, but Wallace failed in his objective to free Scotland, so there's that one. Samson fits the picture more a bit for me, though, and he has the madness characteristic to Heracles, as well as the Divine favour from his hair. Wallace almost seems like a cross between Berserker and Saber to me...

Berserker: b) Samson. He killed far more people than Wallace, and was quite destructive in his day... I'm sorry, I don't know anything about the last person other than that he was a viking.

I hope that helps, let us know how you're fanfic goes!

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 14, 2006, 12:57am

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a. Best-fitted to their role (as a class)

Well, I was just wondering if you preferred the male or female version of the Arthurian spirit as Saber. Also, Arondight isn't nearly comparable in power with Excalibur - Lancelot has the skills but Arthur's got the sword. Also, Lancelot's french, so he's not even included in some of the Arthurian mythos, which weakens his belief-power.

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B. Archers

A Good Archer can actually be Simo Hayha, who was a Polish sniper in the WW2 who downed 542 Russians. Not many "Archers" in history can claim to have downed 542 enemies in a war now..can they? He even used the crappy Mosin Nagant...which really is horrible as a sniper rifle.

But from the list...I think...Euythus.

Well, that's more skill at finding sniping locations than actual archery skill. Teucer's arrows were like massive furrows of wind that cleaved through the Trojan ranks, requiring Apollo's intervention to stop, and Eurythus' bow is the prototype (father myth) of Heracles' Nine Lives.

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C. Lancers

I really have no idea. Archileus seems like a good choice, but if they know who he was all they have to do is to target the legs...Kinda take out the drama in the fights..no?

Well, stabbing his heel won't actually do anything, the only reason Paris killed him was because his arrow was poisoned.

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Genghis Khan would ROCK, but he isn't there.

Genghis Khan sucked at fighting. Excellent strategist and leader; horrible fighter. It was mainly his people that perpetrated the mythos of his invincibility. Really, Tamer the Lame would be a better choice in terms of combat ability.

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F. Casters

Isn't there already a Solomon somewhere in the Natsu-verse? I can't remember if he was the same as the King Solomon.

But if so, I think Solomon is probably the strongest. He DOES have complete control over the 72 demon rulers of hell. Between those rulers, they have over 200 legions of demons under them...and can almost effect every aspect of humanity with their magic...

That power is pretty overwhelming.

Think that's a descendant of the real Solomon. Also, the manacost of maintaining 200 legions of demons in the real world would be pretty heavy. Ptolemaeus could probably whip up a strong daemon faster and sic him on Solomon before Solomon unleashes the full Seal.

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G. Berserkers

John Talbot can be a good Berserker. But probably Egil Skalla since he WAS the original Berserker in our world's stories.

Who is Talbot, exactly? I was favoring Egil in this one, too - he has lots of cool names for Noble Phantasms.

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In any case, is there a "make your own servant!" topic here?

Fanworks section. I already made Solomon.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 14, 2006, 1:57am

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Well, I was just wondering if you preferred the male or female version of the Arthurian spirit as Saber. Also, Arondight isn't nearly comparable in power with Excalibur - Lancelot has the skills but Arthur's got the sword. Also, Lancelot's french, so he's not even included in some of the Arthurian mythos, which weakens his belief-power.

Arondight doesn't have the same power level as Excalibur, but then anything can be fudged a litte. In my friend's story, Arondight isn't the "godly-energy sword" like Ea and Excalibur, but a ranked C+ sword whose only trait is indestructability.

I mean we ALL know that Gilgamesh never had Ea nor did he have so many proto-relics. Still, Natsu-san took artistic liberty to add these aspects to Gilgamesh, which made in a more interesting character..even though he is not exactly "spot on" in Gilgamesh's character, abilities and outlook (especially the Gilgamesh at the end of the original "Epic of Gilgamesh")

It is true that Lancelot isn't in the old Arthurian legends, but he is in almost EVERY version of it after the 11th century. He has became the defining Hero of the Arthurian sagas.
He is a fictional character anyway, much like the "King Arthur" who probably never existed. The same can be said for almost servant that is in the original F/SN, factual existence doesn't quite matter.

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Well, that's more skill at finding sniping locations than actual archery skill. Teucer's arrows were like massive furrows of wind that cleaved through the Trojan ranks, requiring Apollo's intervention to stop, and Eurythus' bow is the prototype (father myth) of Heracles' Nine Lives.

Well, we can't beat them all..right? I was hoping there was a "modern legend" amonst the servants. I believe that if there was such a thing as a world pact, Simo would have made it to save his homeland Poland (you know how anti-communist the Poles ARE...). I don't see how Eurythus need to make a pact with the world though...

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Well, stabbing his heel won't actually do anything, the only reason Paris killed him was because his arrow was poisoned.

Since Achillies will probably have TRUE full invunerability, unlike Hercules who had 12 lives and thicker skin only, he will be pretty hard to stop. If Herc's skin makes him invunerable to rank B NPs, then ol'Ach will at least be able to withstand up to A+ NPs.

Almost every fight with him will degenerate into DAMN-I-must-get-his-legs, which is pretty humourous but not that dramatic. Since it was the only unprotected spot.

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He isn't an excellent strategist, that will be Subotai, his chief adviser. But records of his youth DOES show that the boy was an exception rider and archer. As well as being very, very skilled at Mongolian wrestling. Where did you get the idea that he sucked at fighting?

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The legion thingy is the full power of Solomon. He can also summon individual the Demon Lords to do his bidding. Basically Ptolemaeus can summon something strong, but Solomon can also summon Asmodai, Amon, Baal, Asataroth or even all 4 together...who are pretty much the strongest demons in Christian Demonlogy.

Even if the master is weak, he can always summon the lesser lords like Gaap, Furcas, Dantalion etc. They should be enough to handle whatever that comes.

Plus, he has the sword Shamshir-e Zomorrodnegar.Probably the proto type of Luke's Green Lightsaber LOL.

Talbot is the most capable knight on the English side in the Hundred Years War. He is the "English Achilles'" to the French and French moms back then actually used him to scare their children. He is known as a great soldier but is sometimes ver rash (Berserkert trait?)

I was thinking if you took Joan as Saber then Talbot would make a great foil.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 14, 2006, 2:08am

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I don't see how Eurythus need to make a pact with the world though...

Well, history pretty much owned him, he'd probably want a more favorable account or his life (or for Apollo not to humiliate him as badly). Demigods are usually proud.

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Achilleus could be taken down by mind-affecting assualts or poisoning his meals. I'm going to use Longinus anyway; he's got the most powerful spear.

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Where did you get the idea that he sucked at fighting?

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The book Secret History makes it clear he was not physically courageous and even says he was afraid of dogs. Many legends claim that Genghis Khan always was in the front in battles, but these may not be historically accurate.

If his weakness is dogs, the pet store > Khan.

Hm, Talbot is interesting, but I think the origin of the Berserker mythos would be more appropriate.

William Tell would want the world to rid itself of tyrants.

@Blue Gunner: Yeah, I actually do have something for Joan. Five somethings, in fact.

Also, Paris only had the Guidance for one shot.

I think I won't include Solomon, simply because of the fact that he's way overpowered. I'm something of a Caster fan myself, so maybe I'll include Medea with Shamshir al-Zomorrodnegar plotted in.

Thanks for your input, guys! Keep it coming!

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by fordprefect on Oct 14, 2006, 2:10am

If anyone was considering Achilles as a Servant, one should also read Dan Simmon's Illium and Olympos, which feature his invulnerability as being a result of probability at a quantum level. Essentially, Achilles was fated to die by Paris' arrow and in no other way. While Simmon's doesn't play it up enough as being the result of probability, it is rather interesting.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 14, 2006, 2:11am

I've always been meaning to read those books, but I could never find them at the library. That is extremely interesting, though...Illum versions of the Trojan heros would probably be more interesting than their Homeric counterparts, though they'd probably have to be Counter-Guardians or something, with what I've heard of the plot. (Admittedly, not much.)

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 14, 2006, 2:13am

So who is your Final Seven?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by fordprefect on Oct 14, 2006, 2:17am

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I've always been meaning to read those books, but I could never find them at the library. That is extremely interesting, though...Illum versions of the Trojan heros would probably be more interesting than their Homeric counterparts, though they'd probably have to be Counter-Guardians or something, with what I've heard of the plot. (Admittedly, not much.)

The alternate Trojan War produces some considerable feats for the high end heroes like Hector and Achilles. As in standing up against the overpressure wave generated by one of Zeus' nuclear weapons. It's an interesting read, to say the least.

Though I wonder why Maerlin didn't pop up in the Caster section.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 14, 2006, 2:20am

Ah, because he was accused in the F/SN universe of giving Saber an *ahem.* Didn't think he would survive initial contact with Saber, and I didn't want to go generic either. I also tried to stay away from anyone post-1700 (unless far future) because I want to maintain the F/SN fantasy war feel.

My Final Seven (Eight)? I'm not sure yet, and even if I were, I wouldn't tell until I had finished at least the first few chapters of my fic, so it's not spoilerish. I will say that one class possesses more than one Servant.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by bluegunner on Oct 14, 2006, 2:26am

After a bit of research (ie Wikipedia) I think that Longinus would make a good Lancer, although the problem I think would be that his spear, like Excalibur and Gae Bolg, is an artefact that is easily recognisable. According to Wiki, it appears in the Grail mythos and so would be appropriate in my opinion, but I think there is still the danger of him being recognised (like Lancer being recognised in the second episode).

If you're cutting Solomon, then probably Medea would be a good choice, but you run the chance of being accused of being not original, as she was in the fifth war. Morgan would be interesting, being a student of Merlin, and would also be a good contrast to Arthur if you use him.

Who were you planning on using as Assassin if you're going against the Hassan tradition?

And last, I'm not sure why Tell would want to rid the world of tyrants, he already killed the one who had any effect on him and so I'm not sure that he would give his eternal soul to defeat other tyrants when he isn't sure if that would happen or not. That's my second two cents.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 14, 2006, 2:32am

Seriously, IF the Lancelot in the F/SN actually likes Saber (all original account points that he never fell for Morgan's seduction...so I can assume he DOESN'T like Morgan/Guinevere in F/SN), he will probably be the first one to kill Merlin...LOL like the story in "The Last Defender of Camelot". Plus Merlin is not really human right? He was a Incubus half-breed, which means he might not even qualify for the Throne of Heroes...

Longinus would be good, but what is his reason to make a world pact? It would be really hard to make his NP original (it might become too Gae Bolg-ish

In any case, who is your Saber? I guess it isn't much of a spoiler, since he/she will probably be the main.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by fordprefect on Oct 14, 2006, 2:33am

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Ah, because he was accused in the F/SN universe of giving Saber an *ahem.*

Apparently he was a 'trickster'. I like to think he was laying down the law.

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Didn't think he would survive initial contact with Saber, and I didn't want to go generic either.

Most reasonable, though I think that when it comes down to it, if anyone could nut Saber, it would be Maerlin.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 14, 2006, 2:34am

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After a bit of research (ie Wikipedia) I think that Longinus would make a good Lancer, although the problem I think would be that his spear, like Excalibur and Gae Bolg, is an artefact that is easily recognisable. According to Wiki, it appears in the Grail mythos and so would be appropriate in my opinion, but I think there is still the danger of him being recognised (like Lancer being recognised in the second episode).

Well, I don't think Longinus will care much if he's recognized. They won't survive to tell anyone, with what I'm planning for his Noble Phantasm.

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If you're cutting Solomon, then probably Medea would be a good choice, but you run the chance of being accused of being not original, as she was in the fifth war. Morgan would be interesting, being a student of Merlin, and would also be a good contrast to Arthur if you use him.

I'm probably going to go with an augmented Medea once I figure out how to augment her without plot-holing.

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And last, I'm not sure why Tell would want to rid the world of tyrants, he already killed the one who had any effect on him and so I'm not sure that he would give his eternal soul to defeat other tyrants when he isn't sure if that would happen or not. That's my second two cents.

Well, we can contrive reasons fairly easily - did Gilgamesh the myth have a real reason for wanting to make a contract with the Grail? After all, in the myth, he accepts mortality and becomes a generally balanced person. Seems the Grail War only made him worse. Anyway, Tell may only be in it because he likes to fight, or because he believes that tyranny has so infiltrated the world that an arbiter is necessary. I don't think we need to argue semantics about it.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by bluegunner on Oct 14, 2006, 2:36am

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Point.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 14, 2006, 2:40am

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I'm probably going to go with an augmented Medea once I figure out how to augment her without plot-holing.

Seriously, you can always use another person for caster....how bout some oriental ones? Everyone seems to be from the West..or Middle East.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by arai on Oct 14, 2006, 2:42am

On another note: Merem Solomon is completely unrelated to the king, according to Character Material.

....Solomon seems to be popular (world setting-wise) in light novels/erogames.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 14, 2006, 2:52am

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....Solomon seems to be popular (world setting-wise) in light novels/erogames.

Because he is pretty much THE original Eroge Potagonist! Look at him! He has like...BAJILLION of wives and even had the PROTO-TYPE TSUDERE character (Queen of Selba).

LOL!

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by bluegunner on Oct 14, 2006, 2:53am

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...you can always use another person for caster....how bout some oriental ones? Everyone seems to be from the West..or Middle East.

I guess when you think "magic",you don't reall think of the East. I mean, the Wu-Jens and Oriental mages are quite powerful in their own right, but I can't think of any off the top of my head that aren't part of a work of fiction, such as the sorceress Sephrenia in the Elenium. That may be because I'm not Asian and don't have much exposure to Asian culture other than my classes, but I think many would be in the same position. What are some oriental mages (this is purely for my interest)

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 14, 2006, 3:22am

Well...there is...

Izumo no Okuni
When you think of the term "betsushikime" in anime, you are really looking at her. As the PROTOTYPE of the fighting shrine maidens, she is probably skilled at both magic and sword.

She was alive 1500s, was a Miko of the GRAND SHRINE OF IZUMO and is the founder of Kabuki.
Given that the modern idea that Miko can "cast magic", she would make a pretty good Caster. Now, if only we have more ideas for her NPs, it was known that she usually acts in Kabuki's as either a samurai or a Christian Missionary. So it probably mean that she would have a "katana" and a "cross" as her Np?

Abe no Seimei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abe_no_Seimei

He's basically the Japanese Merlin...or Solomon. But I think he might be extremely overdone in some people's perspective.

Amakusa Shiro
Heh, he was a Japanese Christian leader and matyr. Later stories have him as some sort of Mage as well, but him being a magic user is probably more of a modern invention then anything. Shiro Tokisada Amakusa in the Samurai Shodown is based on him. Of the three oriental mages I listed, this one has the most compelling reasons to make a Pact with the World.

Can be a passable caster as well.

I didn't list any Indian or Chinese mages...since I don't think anyone here will know them that well.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by deviousj on Oct 14, 2006, 8:20am

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If my memory serves me correctly wasn't Gilgamesh distressed by the death of Enkidu and thus begins his search for immortality? I'd hardly say that one who searches for immortality would merely accept mortality. Gilgamesh becomes a more balanced person later on in the epic due to his friendship with Enkidu, but Enkidu's death affects Gilgamesh in a immense way. I really do believe that the Gilgamesh you're referring to in the one during his adventures with Enkidu. Regardless of Gilgamesh's character at the end of his life, the servant Gilgamesh seems to be exactly like the Gilgamesh who hadn't met Enkidu yet.

Then again, it's been a while since I've read the epic. Legends, myths, and epics aren't my strong point. I have little more than a passing interest in them anyways. This basically means that I can contribute almost nothing more to this discussion than these statements. Just remember that you can take a massive amount of liberty. So, you can play around with the legends and myths themselves a bit as Nasu plays around with the legends and myths of the servants participating in the fifth war.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by baiken on Oct 14, 2006, 9:41am

Gilgamesh didn't "go to the Grail to make a contract with it". Nor did any of the other Servants.
Eireis, heroic spirits, are the heroes of humanity, the best humanity has ever produced - those who defied Fate and beat some random mythical beast or accomplished enormous feats.
Those heroes go to the Throne of Heroes, which uses them for various events. Counter Guardians are those of the eireies that specifically made a contract with the World, and became eireis by defying Fate only thanks to the power the World gave them.
Those who make a pact with the World are the Counter Guardians like Emiya and Arturia, not everyone else. Gilgamesh never made any contract with the World, he just accepted the offer the Grail of Fuyuki proposed when he was goofing around inside the Throne.

When a contract is made, for the Grail War or not (there can be other contracts outside of the Grail of Fuyuki), whatever decides of the contract (the Grail in our case) picks an eirei at the Throne, and the Throne and the Akasha shove in his head whatever records the eirei needs.
Cú Chulainn says it himself, they don't even need a second life to begin with. They just happen to accept the contract - or maybe they don't even have a choice to begin with. It's not like any hero would *refuse* to come back and fight, especially when the Throne is the one to decide what records/memories it would give them. It's the Grail that tells eireis "your Master is the one who feeds you, therefor you must not kill him and you must protect him". Even Avenger, who hates humanity, still has that aspect in mind - don't let your Master die (I can't think Angra Mainyu would let an Einsbern order him to kill everybody without trying to kill the Einsbern first...) Servants don't kill their Masters because the Grail tells them not to (well, Berserker class is the exception sooner than not)

So no, none of the eirei would need to *want* to make a contract with the Grail or the World. But they likely wouldn't refuse it, especially if the Grail can grant a wish. Eireis don't have to think "I have a wish, let's ask the Grail if he can grant it" but rather "the Grail is asking me to fight and offers me a wish granting, why not". Because usually, anyone would just happen to have something they could ask the Grail to grant.
Sasaki and Cú Chulainn just want a fight, they wouldn't even need to go to the Grail, it's just that the Grail War was an opportunity for that : it's not like a hero can't be summoned as a Servant if he doesn't have an impossible wish (redo his life).
And anyway, there's still the fact that heroes are the ones who become eireis, and eireis can perfectly be summoned for something other than the Grail of Fuyuki.

I think.

Oh, and yes, legend-Gilgamesh tried to get immortality from the Gods, and lost it to a snake. He got afraid of death seeing how his best friend, who he considered his equal, actually died - he feared he would die as well and thought that owning everything has meaning only if you are immortal, otherwise you lose it all one day. And his best and only friend ever, the one he considered his equal, was killed.
But. The Nasu version precisely has Saber ask why Gilgamesh would want immortality, and have Gil reply "immortality ? I gave it to a snake." He clearly says he's not interested in the immortality the Grail was offering him, since he already had it and *gave* it to a snake - as in, immortality is uninteresting. He was just there because it was an opportunity to have more fun than at the Throne.
Gil says a couple of time that he's not even interested in whatever the Grail could give him, that he has *no* wish. Since, you know, he already has everything.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 14, 2006, 12:45pm

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Since, you know, he already has everything.

Except, you know, Saber.

Anyway, let's get back on topic, people!

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 16, 2006, 6:09am

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The Nasu version precisely has Saber ask why Gilgamesh would want immortality, and have Gil reply "immortality ? I gave it to a snake."

That might be an empty boast from ol'Gil himself, he isn't gonna be humble (or secure) enough to tell another king that he lost something as major as immortality to a SNAKE when he was BATHING. ~_1. Because that wasn't what actually happened in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

I also remember that he said something about destroying his own nation and people....which DEFINATELY did not happen in the Original....

Unless, of course, its Artistic License on Natsu-san's part, too make Gilgamesh someone who NEVER made a mistake.

In any case, scribe any clue to which "class" will be the main character in your fic? I am thinking you fic might take some time before its ready.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by baiken on Oct 16, 2006, 6:36am

... No. The point is to have Gilgamesh not care about the Grail, because he's not interested in what it can give him. So yeah, him losing immortality to a snake had to be changed to show he didn't care about it either.
And, Gilgamesh went from good king to tyran just before befriending Enkidu, the only one he considered his equal. The "destroying your nation" (it's Saber who says that) would be referring to the part where he was a tyran.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 16, 2006, 6:48am

That wasn't the way it went in the Original story in the Epic. Nor was it phrased like that in the F/SN description of his story.

Gilgamesh before, meeting Enkindu, WAS NEVER a good king. He is somewhat strong and wise BUT he was also extremely cruel(because he was bored) to his subjects. Hearing the people's cries of suffering, Anu (the King of the gods..or many the world) created Enkindu as his equal (to keep Gil entertained)

After his lost of Amborsia, that's when his major development came and he MIGHT have became a good king. No matter the case, you messed up the order of him being a good or a bad king.

Of course, I am willing tyo chalk it up as the original text on Gil's background was already patched or its artistic license.

Thinking about it..Enkidu might make a GREAT BERSERKER.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by baiken on Oct 16, 2006, 6:51am

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After his lost of Amborsia, that's when his major development came and he MIGHT have became a good king. No matter the case, you messed up the order of him being a good or a bad king.

I didn't say Enkidu made him turn into a tyran, what I was saying is that originally, he was OK, then (quickly) became a tyran, then Enkidu came in the way you said.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 16, 2006, 6:54am

I didn't remember it stated he was a good king anytime before he met Enkindu.

Hey, its tyrant with the"T" at the back. (LOL Poetic Justice FOR the additional "T" in Nasu)

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 17, 2006, 6:08pm

My fic's out; you can find it in the Fanworks section under "[FF]On the Crown." I'd appreciate if you left a comment, time allowing.

Also, I've decided who all the Servants are going to be (some not from this list), but anyone care to take a guess at their identities?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by tornadowolf on Oct 18, 2006, 10:19am

I'm still upset that an ordinary pilum that pierced a dead human corpse is alleged to have wounded an unwoundable God.

Seriously, Jesus was already dead, and the body left behind was only clay and water.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by sssssz on Oct 18, 2006, 2:01pm

And Rome was founded by children who were bred by a pack of wolves.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 18, 2006, 2:43pm

It's a myth. Things are obviously going to be bent one way or another, since we don't have a very specific account of the happenings. Besides, wasn't Longinus sainted because he put Jesus out of his suffering out of mercy?

And Jesus isn't/wasn't immune to being pierced with normal materials while alive. They wouldn't be able to stake him on the cross with iron nails if he were.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by sssssz on Oct 18, 2006, 2:59pm

The important thing here is that sometimes, belief is a more powerful factor than truth in the universe of Type-Moon. Maybe Longinus stabbed crucified Jesus. Maybe the thing Longinus stabbed was clay and water. Maybe Longinus didn't exist at all, just a runaway soldier needing money right now and a lie. But what's important is that people thought the spear Longinus used to pierce Jesus' side had mythical powers due to its rather direct connection with God, and that consensus gave the thing which beared the name the Spear of Longinus its abilities.

Or that's how I have understood the metaphysics of Nasuverse, and understanding, metaphysics, and Nasuverse shouldn't be in one sentence.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 18, 2006, 3:22pm

Anyway, if anyone can tell me the identity of my Assassin, I'll give them a cookie. It's actually not impossible to figure out - I'll give you a hint: movies released within the past two years in China.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by baiken on Oct 18, 2006, 3:41pm

That'll be a famous figure played by Jet Li. Fearless - Huo Yuanjia ? And one of his tutors was Japanese, says Wikipedia.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 18, 2006, 3:52pm

Very good! *hands Baiken a cookie*

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by kaorin on Oct 18, 2006, 4:25pm

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Very good! *hands Baiken a cookie*

Tone down on the post spamming. :V

You only registered 5 days ago and you already have 99 posts. :V

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Damage Type: Aggravated Two Points for every one Health Point lost by Mage due to blood drain.

I wonder why I feel so hyper about having another Mage geek here in Beast's Lair.

Drop by the channel sometimes, Scribbler. o_o

Oh, the joys of male-male bonding.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 18, 2006, 4:30pm

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Tone down on the post spamming. :V

You only registered 5 days ago and you already have 99 posts. :V

I'm just active. On most forums I would post over 30-40 times a day, but I was never accused of spamming. Wouldn't spamming involve off-topic conversations? Also, I don't see postcount as any special indicator of anything. So what if I feel like posting often? Doesn't mean that the quality of my posts is any less.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by kaorin on Oct 18, 2006, 4:48pm

Post more then, but I'll give you a warning that many people won't be too happy with it.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 18, 2006, 5:32pm

What's wrong with posting if the posts are good? And I'm sure people would tell me if they thought otherwise. But enough of that.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by cascade on Oct 18, 2006, 5:52pm

Kaorin, I think it's strange you come out of nowhere to post and point out others post spamming. Are you like keeping tabs on new posters just for the purpose of pointing out how fast they post?
I'm not defending him, of course, but your own posts are really small and don't contribute much. If you're concerned about spamming, then why don't you PM the spammers instead?

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I'm still upset that an ordinary pilum that pierced a dead human corpse is alleged to have wounded an unwoundable God.

Seriously, Jesus was already dead, and the body left behind was only clay and water.

I don't know where people get that it wounded God. I always thought the Spear of Destiny was just associated with holiness because of what the act symbolized and because the blood and water healed Longinus's bad eyesight.

Anyways, about possible Servants.

Archer has got to be Hou Yi, the mythological archer central to Chinese folktales. Or maybe a character from the Water Margin. I forgot his name, but he was a noble bandit that could shoot the eye out of a flying hawk. Another one was Zhang Qing, who could fling objects with extreme accuracy. I know that as a Servant his ability would likely be boosted to the point that he could turn any randomly thrown object into a deadly projectile.

For Berserker, I would think possibly Sampson would be a decent enough choice but there are better ones. Possibly Li Kui, also from the Water Margin. He fought on foot with two axes and was one of the more gifted 108 heroes who was called "Black Whirlwind."

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 18, 2006, 6:10pm

Is Hou Yi the one that felled the Nine Suns?

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For Berserker, I would think possibly Sampson would be a decent enough choice but there are better ones. Possibly Li Kui, also from the Water Margin. He fought on foot with two axes and was one of the more gifted 108 heroes who was called "Black Whirlwind."

Well, that depends on whether you're shooting for power or a specific cultural orientation. I doubt that Li Kui could possibly stand up to a guy who killed 2,000 Philistines with a donkey's jawbone.

I'm afraid I haven't heard of the Water Margin. My background in Chinese mythology and literature is not nearly as strong as I'd like it to be.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by cascade on Oct 18, 2006, 6:56pm

That is Hou Yi

Water Margin is the Chinese classic literature sometimes known as "Outlaws of the Marsh." It was about 108 noble bandits who were living during the time of (I think) Tang dynasty. Each one had some kind of supernatural gift in the story; some of them actually existed historically or were based off of historical figures.

Chinese heroes usually have that kind of ability. I mean, Zhang Fei scared off a million soldiers with one shout, and Li Kui couldn't have been much weaker than him. I chose him because he had the mindset of someone who would fit well as a Berserker class.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 18, 2006, 7:05pm

Ah, ok, cool. I had heard of the Outlaws of the Marsh, but didn't know that it originally existed under another name. The 108 Heroes thing should have reminded me, but I always thought of them as the 36 Heavenly Chieftans + 72 Earthly Spirits (guess I can't do math, huh?).

I read up on Li Kui - he does seem to have a very able Berserker mindset, but I don't know if I could pair him up with Rin as Master, seeing as how she prefers her Servants to possess at least a veneer of civilization. Charging naked into battle - I doubt she would approve. The honor thing and filial piety make a tenuous link, but I doubt Rin would summon an Eastern spirit whose item she did not possess in the first place - she seems more connected to the westward-facing Association.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by tornadowolf on Oct 18, 2006, 10:51pm

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Besides, wasn't Longinus sainted because he put Jesus out of his suffering out of mercy?

I don't know, but I find it hard to believe you can put a dead man out of his misery.

I repeat: Jesus was already dead. The soldiers were pretty sure of it, they just ordered one of their own to check and make sure with his spear.

They were right, he was already dead. Living people tend to react to impalement.

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And Jesus isn't/wasn't immune to being pierced with normal materials while alive.

I never said he was. His body was always completely human, and thus susceptible to injury and death by injury.

Maybe it's only me, but when I hear people talking about piercing God, I think of the WHOLE entity of God, not the fleshy body that God the Son happened to be walking around in.

Because if they were really talking only about how the spear pierced a fleshy body, I'd have to wonder why the thing was so special.

The crown of thorns cut him. Fists bruised him. The cat of nine tails scourged the flesh from his back. All of that while the Son of God still lived. One would think this would grant them far more power than a spear that really did nothing.

The only reason the spear became so famous was when the Catholic Church imposed the image of it over the Irish Spear of Luin.

Can't make the locals forget about their magical, ever-bleeding spear? Associate the spear with Christ.

That's also how the Holy Grail came about. Some before-unknown cup from the last supper was imposed upon the Dagda's cauldron. Nevermind that no self-respecting Jew would ever think of catching blood in a drinking recepticle -- that would violate their cultural moores and religious laws about the uncleanliness of death.

I hate the stories of the pilum and the cup because they bastardize the original Irish stories AND the story of Christ.

It's like mixing soda with water.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by tornadowolf on Oct 18, 2006, 11:01pm

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That is Hou Yi

Didn't someone cover him in the "Servants from Myth and Anime" thread in the Fanfiction section?

I think the write-up included some "Drink of Immortality" thing. Some mana-replenishing power.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by shiakou on Oct 18, 2006, 11:22pm

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I hate the stories of the pilum and the cup because they bastardize the original Irish stories AND the story of Christ.

What's the difference between the Church making up something about a pagan spear and connecting it to Christ and Nasu making up something between the Church and Mages? They're all just stories, and if a source thinks it's cool to crossover a couple, why have a migrain over it?

That is, unless you actually believe those stories are true. Then I can see why you would be mad.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by deviousj on Oct 18, 2006, 11:56pm

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There's actually quite a big difference. Nasu's work is meant as entertainment while the Church is the guiding force in the lives of many. Christianity is the predominant religion of the world and many are very devout so to just say that legends and Biblical stories are just stories will offend people. There's also an issue of ethnic pride; if you aren't Christian and the church messes around with your culture you would be probably be pissed. Besides, the Church didn't just "crossover" the stories because it was cool; they did it to make the evangelical process easier.

I think that's all I'm gonna say on this issue. Religion's too volatile of a subject to normally discuss on a forum. It gets downright nasty sometimes.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by shiakou on Oct 19, 2006, 12:15am

Like I said, I don't actually believe in the Longinus or the Holy Grail, even though I'm Christian, so it's as much entertainment to me as Nasu's work. As for being offended, well, I already did say as much to the fellow Christians who got uppity over The Da Vinci Code. Basically, it's not worth getting offended about.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 19, 2006, 12:27am

We shouldn't take anything in the fanfictions and fiction too seriously, can lead to madness you know. The Church of the Nasu-verse is obviously different from the Church of our world, King ARTHUR was a girl and existed and there is actually such a thing as "scientific" magic.

Its all done to entertain. Just like oral stories of the past.

Give accursedscibber some artistic leeway, that the spear actually have a real historical significance. In his story, it COULD be the one artifact that actually ended "that persos's" life. No matter the case, just take it at face value. Otherwise, you would have became me...who ranted about how Nasu "warped" the original Arthurian stories.

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Besides, the Church didn't just "crossover" the stories because it was cool; they did it to make the evangelical process easier.

It aided the evagelical process by BEING "cool" to those they aim to convert. The pagan stories are like pop-culture that we have now, they have tremendous influence and sway on the people. The Church integrating the pagan stories to its own is akin to how some churches us "pop-music" carols and hymns to attarct the younger generation.

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Didn't someone cover him in the "Servants from Myth and Anime" thread in the Fanfiction section?

I think the write-up included some "Drink of Immortality" thing. Some mana-replenishing power.

I can't seem to find the thread in the six pages liisted. Is it still there? He did down 9 suns and the "Immortality Thingy" is not a drink, its more like a bottle of pills that had to be taken regularly. Not True Immortallity but Sustained Youth, though eating everything at once make one an immortal. Most stories have him sharing it with his wife.

Anyway, the original stories have him losing it to his wife when he became a tyrannical king.
Wanting to free the people from tyranny, she took all the pils and ascended to the moon. Still, there are multiple versions of that myth. Some say he loved his wife even when he became "bad", and only wished for her to come back. That could make a great plot point for him being a "counter-guardian". On the other hand, some say that he tried to shoot the moon down instead....

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That'll be a famous figure played by Jet Li. Fearless - Huo Yuanjia ? And one of his tutors was Japanese, says Wikipedia.

Damn! If I was here yesterday, I would have figured it out! Never read the message on "famous movie" few years ago. I am ashamed, since I AM chinese and Master Huo is a our folk hero.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by sssssz on Oct 19, 2006, 9:04am

Just read the story of Chang'e and Houyi. Now I know where I got the name Moon Shooter from. Stupid ambiguous mind of mine.

My favorite version of the story is that Chang'e accidently took too much of the elixir, and started departing the mortal world due to overdose. Houyi tried to bring her down back to earth by shooting her, but he could not possibly aim at his wife and in the end she landed on the moon...

...but damn, shooting not only one, but nine suns is pretty impressive even for folklores.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by cascade on Oct 19, 2006, 1:39pm

Yes, that is Hou Yi. He was a superior hero that was thrown out of the relm of Gods, so such an accomplishment was entirely possible to him.

I may be wrong, but as a Servant, he would have some divinity, and also access to both the elixer and his arrows with which he could be a very dangerous opponent, even more fearsome than Archer actualy archering. He would probably be on Gil's level of difficulty to beat, but for different reasons.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 19, 2006, 3:23pm

Regardless of whether or not Longinus' legend was true, belief - perhaps misguided - in it still exists.

I think Hou Yi would make a better Counter Guardian than a Servant. Also, I'm not sure exactly how to incorporate his sun-downing arrows as a Noble Phantasm - if we take them literally, then shooting one at the Earth would result in the destruction of Earth, and possibly massive disruption of nearly planets.

Arrgh, I've got enough Servants, now I just need Masters!

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 20, 2006, 4:49am

How bout basing the Masters on some of the people here? We are all real, and one of us is bound to be interesting as a character in your fic ! LOL

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by sssssz on Oct 20, 2006, 7:15am

In one version, the nine suns were the nine of the Jade Emperor's ten sons. Perhaps the sun-shooting arrows of Houyi has powers linked to the target's divinity or something, somewhat like Gun God's gun? Or, sun is damn far away, maybe it has infinite range or something. >_>

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 20, 2006, 3:14pm

Actually, I really do need someone to be a Master. You'll have to be stuck with the Servant I give you, but I'll try to remain faithful to your original description. If you want to post a character sktech here, I could review it. Otherwise, I'll have to make yet another OC.

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Or, sun is damn far away, maybe it has infinite range or something. >_>

Hm...arrows that teleport from the strung bow once fired to their target might work. You preserve the original launching velocity and can strike from any distance, so long as you can see them. Archer seemed to be able to do that of his own volition, however - didn't he track and strafe a Mach 13.2 Saber?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by baiken on Oct 20, 2006, 3:51pm

That one was because it is Hrunting that had "homing arrow" abilities as long as he would keep the bow aimed at his target. That's only because it was Hrunting - or at least, only Hrunting was described as such, but that's a likely assumption.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by turtlegeneral on Oct 20, 2006, 9:21pm

Hou yi did shot down some suns and moons
but in many version, those suns and moons were pretty close to Earth, and thus burning everything
after he shot down 9 suns and 9 moons, the sun escaped to a real high place where it can only warm the Earth ===> the current sun
I wonder if Hou yi can really shoot down the current sun, he never tried anyway
He also never tried to shoot down the current moon to get Chang'e back, or he just cant?

yeah, it was a famous folktales in China and my country but
it did not give me the impression of a very strong hero when I first heard it, I dont know why >.>

BTW, I always thought Chang'e's name should start with "H"?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by tornadowolf on Oct 20, 2006, 11:56pm

I apologize for venting on the topic of the hated pilum and cup. It wasn't helpful for anything.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 21, 2006, 12:30am

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I apologize for venting on the topic of the hated pilum and cup. It wasn't helpful for anything.

Hey its alright. But it does cause a little bit of topic dissonance when you just post an apology with no references to other discussion! It MIGHT kill the topic you know....

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I still think that his arrows are meant to be UBER-destructive. Perhaps making it some type of existence cancelling attack for something. Or maybe we can just give him shiki's death eyes, that can explain how he can destroy nine suns (by aiming at the DOT) without making him TOO OP.

Also, nobody here is willing to write a self-description to become a master in AS's fic?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 21, 2006, 12:44am

They're scared. I would be too, if I were auditioning to be in my fic.

Anyway, if the suns were close to the sky, Hou Yi wouldn't really have any major definitive powers. Does his bow have a name?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by fordprefect on Oct 21, 2006, 1:19am

I think it's more because we're so shy.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by turtlegeneral on Oct 21, 2006, 1:34am

err, in the myth
there's no "big explosion" or sun disappear, they just drop, dead like a normal human got hit by an arrow >.>
so I wonder if destructive power or MEODP will be good?
how about
it's an arrow that once you got hit, you die no matter what, but can be blocked (with high rank NP only) and dodge (hard since he has godlike aiming)?
may be like Black Barrel, force the concept of death on the target, but much lesser in pure destructive power

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 21, 2006, 6:07am

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They're scared. I would be too, if I were auditioning to be in my fic.

I don't mind, if there was some kinda of fill-in-the-blanks Q&A audition. Seriously. LOL

Also,. I don't think the suns are THAT close to the sky. No matter how close, his arrow still has to fly past the moon and achieve escape velocity before it can hit any sun.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by turtlegeneral on Oct 21, 2006, 6:36am

well, we are talking about Myth, an Eastern myth, Chinese /Vietnamese myth and countries that crossed culture with China

the suns could drop onto Earth, die like human, can dive into the ocean and so on, 10 moons/suns were pretty close to each other, and pretty close to Earth until they got shot down]

The sky was seperated from Earth by a Giant, got a hole and then got patched, was kept from falling down and crush us with 4 legs from a Giant Turtle (yeah, possible new NP, Giant Turtle Legs that hold the sky at it place D: )
such scientific thing like "the sun wasnt that close to the sky", "had to fly past the moon and archive escape velocity" cant be applied here
The suns and moons at that time were inside/below the sky, not just close

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by sssssz on Oct 21, 2006, 6:51am

But in any case.

I was talking about Houyi and his legend at #beastslair (come here and idle, Gosh darn it,) but well, the most important thing here seems to be the symbolism of shooting down not only one, but nine suns. Sun was seen as the life and light giver, which had the potential to destroy anything it wanted as in the legend of Houyi. Being able to shoot which empowers the world is simply above shooting down thermonuclear balls of gases, in my opinion...

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 21, 2006, 6:59am

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I was talking about Houyi and his legend at #beastslair (come here and idle, Gosh darn it,) but well, the most important thing here seems to be the symbolism of shooting down not only one, but nine suns. Sun was seen as the life and light giver, which had the potential to destroy anything it wanted as in the legend of Houyi. Being able to shoot which empowers the world is simply above shooting down thermonuclear balls of gases, in my opinion...

In any case, remember the Suns are actually SONS of "Yu-Di" in some versions. Yu-Di, or Jade Emperor, is pretty much the supreme deity of traditional chinese mythology. Like Odin, YHVH and Anu etc.

Its almost like having a mortal killing nine "THAT SON" when he has full divine powers. A mortal killing nine gods is pretty unheard of, that should probably tell how badass Houyi's bow and arrows where.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by tornadowolf on Oct 21, 2006, 10:34am

I could argue that YHVH is on a completely different scale than Odin, but I'll concentrate on the Sun Sons.

Just how personally powerful were these guys? Keeping in mind that personal power is different from external powers -- such as royal authority by virtue of social station, and the size and power of one's military.

Are we talking about figures like Herakles and Samson, or like figures Hilter?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by sssssz on Oct 21, 2006, 11:18am

They are children of the Jade Emperor. Even though you would hate this analogy, they are pretty much Jesuses... Or, you could say that each of them were on par with the Unconquered Sun. They are suns, after all. Except the sons are ninefold.

And about the existence of Houyi--in the real world, he probably is not real. But in Nasuverse, chances are Houyi was a legendary vigilante archer who brought down nine tyrants or something, and his deeds were praised as someone who shot down nine suns that were scorching the earth with their mighty powers. But in any case, I guess Hercules fits better in comparison.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 21, 2006, 12:41pm

Either way, Hou Yi's not our only option for an Archer. Does anyone have alternate suggestions?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by arturias on Oct 21, 2006, 5:56pm

Asian heros seem so much more obscure =p

Something more modern perhaps? I remember kieran using Richtofen (sp) as a rider and that was pretty cool....even if he did get wasted pretty early.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 21, 2006, 6:29pm

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Asian heros seem so much more obscure =p

Well, of course, this site is in English ^_^.

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Something more modern perhaps? I remember kieran using Richtofen (sp) as a rider and that was pretty cool....even if he did get wasted pretty early.

Huo Yuan Jia's death wasn't even a century ago. I don't want to get any more modern than that, though time isn't really a good tracker of technology. I was thinking of an Archer that was alive in the past five hundred years, though.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by bluegunner on Oct 21, 2006, 9:44pm

If you're still looking for someone to be a master, pm me the details you want and I'll do it ^_^

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 21, 2006, 9:47pm

Sorry, I've already made the characters. If you had posted a day earlier you would probably have a spot. T_T I feel bad now, I always make offers I can't live up to...

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by bluegunner on Oct 21, 2006, 9:50pm

Aww don't feel bad. I certainly don't. In the words of FFX, "It's your story."

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by rainrir on Oct 22, 2006, 12:33am

Oh well. Anyway, have you decided on Archer yet?

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by accursedscribbler on Oct 22, 2006, 9:27am

Yeah. He'll be making an entrance Chapter 5.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by tornadowolf on Oct 22, 2006, 1:24pm

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Even though you would hate this analogy, they are pretty much Jesuses...

I don't hate it, but that's probably because I think it's a little silly.

It very much seems that part of the package deal in becoming human was leaving behind whatever power Jesus should have as God the Son. All the miracles he performed were done by the will and authority of God the Father, who is omnipotent.

As was pointed out, Jesus bled and died like any mortal man. So comparing him to a super-tough and awesome-strong Demigod doesn't work.

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Or, you could say that each of them were on par with the Unconquered Sun. They are suns, after all. Except the sons are ninefold.

Now that is a far more useful comparison. Oh, and "Daaaamn."

Daaamn.

Quote:

And about the existence of Houyi--in the real world, he probably is not real. But in Nasuverse, chances are Houyi was a legendary vigilante archer who brought down nine tyrants or something, and his deeds were praised as someone who shot down nine suns that were scorching the earth with their mighty powers. But in any case, I guess Hercules fits better in comparison.

Works for me.

Re: Which of these do you think would make the bes
Post by sinner on Jul 15, 2007, 1:10pm

im sorry to point this out, but Simo was Finnish (or whatever you write it).